GPL vs. iR

[Podkrecony_Ziutek]

Interresting comparison: Lotus 49 in iR and GPL(original GFX) at Mosport

[dave curtis]

Hey - someone painted the kerbs!

[maddog]

Someone also stripped 15 years of development work off the GPL graphics!  I presume, most racers are aware of more recent developments?  The video title neglects to mention GPL 1998 version - a good bit of propaganda.

[Podkrecony_Ziutek]

Yeah, I hate it too. The reason for that was:

Stock GPL graphics with no mods ! Its a back to back showing how far its come, not a comparison of GPL mods vs iRacing:)

GPLaps did a first Impressions of that Lotus

[Hristo Itchov]

Someone also stripped 15 years of development work off the GPL graphics!  I presume, most racers are aware of more recent developments?  The video title neglects to mention GPL 1998 version - a good bit of propaganda.

Yeah, I was irritated about how they made GPL look worse than it actually is at the moment. I'm pretty sure it was done on purpose to try and sway people away from GPL and towards iRacing... a rather lame attempt, except perhaps for those who are yet to try GPL.

[G Jonsson]

I agree about the graphics thing but has anybody here tested the iRacing car? I have of cause and my biggest problem so far is that I can not get tire temp up beond like 120F. Btw, it is just as tricky to drive as the GPL version in my mind, I had especially problem to keep in on track at the back strait at Mosport.

Göran

[John Burrowes]

I think you guys are making too much of the graphics issue. Greger is a part of Team Redline - the channel it's hosted on. Maybe one of its members made the video after Greger supplied the replay files.

I believe that video was made simply to show how far technology has come since GPL came out. That said, I'm assuming that, to make the video, he simply loaded up a GPL replay and captured it. Fair enough - if illustrating the difference 15 years makes. Too bad he didn't also load and capture it again but with updated graphics - to help let people know it's still a sim worth your time. Very likely just an oversight on his part. I doubt he, Greger, has an agenda to dis beloved GPL.

I have driven the iRacing Lotus 49 by the way. It's a beautiful car. It sounds wonderful. As you idle through slow turns the engine sounds like a purring wildcat. It's true too that it's a handful down the back straight. (A gross understatement). There's no relaxing whatsoever as the car skitters this way and that while you accelerate. There's no using full throttle either. You have to lift while cresting the rises - otherwise you'll get so much wheel spin you'll likely be tossed off track onto the grass and, usually, the barrier next to it.

After spending two of my days off trying to come to grips with that car I loaded (undated) GPL and its Lotus, at Mosport, and found it much much easier. I can only do 29s or so but it's easy to keep it on the track.

I hope the iRacing release is a bit broken and needs fixing. If not, it'll be a long while before I feel ready to race it. That's a shame too - since it's so damn beautiful.

[maddog]

Thanks John, for your insight and comparison.  I pointed to the outdated graphics comparison as being unfair. I think it suggests the company is nervous about it's older rival, or else ignorant about it.  I can't believe the developers weren't actually inspired by Gpl.

[Hristo Itchov]

I haven't driven the Lotus, but from what I can see, there's something not quite right with the tires. They're way too sensitive to steering input, as if they have a very low slip angle, like a slick tire.

[G Jonsson]

Thanks John, for your insight and comparison.  I pointed to the outdated graphics comparison as being unfair. I think it suggests the company is nervous about it's older rival, or else ignorant about it.  I can't believe the developers weren't actually inspired by Gpl.

Most likely because it was the same guy, David Kaemmer. I wonder who is nervous here really, if you do not like iRacing, fine, but please do not try to find competition in everything. I drive both GPL and iRacing and I say the more the merrier. Btw, what do you guys think about the BT20 in rF2? At the rFactor camp they of cause think that that one is better them both the Lotus 49. And then we have pCARS and so on and so on........

And John, do try the iRacing Lotus 49 at some other tracks then Mosport, it does really drive quite fine at let`s say Mid Ohio and it may be so that the GPL Lotus 49 is easier round Mosport but I think you need to go a bit faster then 1.29.... to really say. When I did my test at Mosport I did laptimes in the 1.22... in both GPL and iRacing Lotus 49.

Göran

PS. Yes H, it is some kind of strange thing with the tires, like it is not possible to get the tire temp up but it still is a nice car to drive, once you beginn to get some laps in and setup fixed.

[maddog]

Motor Racing is a competitive business, so it seems only natural to compare, and suggest this or that is better.  But in reality, there are very few alive, who are truly qualified to say, if a current Sim has fully captured the handling of a '60's F1.  I can tell you from modern events, such as Goodwood, cars are cornering faster and flatter, than I remember from trackside.  If Hristo's observation is right, it could be that tyre modeling is being done on newer, grippier rubber. 

As time passes, I think historic Sims of all kinds, are destined to become less accurate.  Judging by our many drivers, who think a '67 F1 should leave the grid on 'launch control', a large number won't notice the difference.  I'm quite happy to pass them by.   

[EvilClive]

I think Martin is correct.
 No matter how "good" we think we are in sim racing on our computers or how well we understand the setups of the various cars that we use, we are only using the virtual tools at our disposal.
They may, or may not, be an accurate representation of how the real thing handled back in the 60's and on tyres that used 60's technology? I guess that the only way that we could get any sort of feedback on this would be to get the likes of Jackie Stewart or John Surtees to spend a season racing in GPL and/or iRacing with 67 cars???...somewhat unlikely I suspect?

Those of us old enough to remember the 60's and watching legendary drivers and cars have only our impressions of what it was like. Even old footage of the 60's races can give a false sense of what it was really like, just as watching current F1 cars on TV gives no real impression of the mind numbing speed that those cars carry through the corners and the G forces that they create.

I have tried iRacing ( although not this latest 67GP car), GPL and one or two other sims and I have always returned to GPL because I like the way it feels. It does not matter to me whether or not the physics are truly accurate, but IMHO they do present me with something that feels like it just might be something like the way the real cars behaved...maybe.

The graphics level in iRacing is about as good as it currently can get and the comparison between iRacing and the original GPL (1998) was therefore a little unbalanced, but it was probably not an intentional recruitment ploy for iRacing. 

Maybe to redress the balance and calm the current discussion, someone more clever than I could post a new video showing a current GPL car vs the iRacing 67 car around a circuit that is a high level graphic version in GPL and available in iRacing as well? But I wonder what would that prove?

[Hristo Itchov]

I disagree that you need a real driver to try and tell you if a car in a sim is handling realistically or not. You have to keep in mind those drivers have not developed the habits of feeling the car purely by visuals and sound, without any g force feedback to their body, as well as the limited field of view, missing peripheral vision, which would affect their sense of speed. For them it would look very different to what they're used to, even if the model is 100% realistic.

The only way to make it as realistic as possible is to feed in real data in the model, so the car matches data curves and measurements in all kind of situations. Of course such data never covers the full range of possible speeds, temperatures, loads, etc., so there is a guess work involved. I think it may really be that they used modern tires for simulating the Lotus instead of vintage 60s tires, but since they improve the physics all the time, perhaps there will be updates for this car in the near future.