***** IMPORTANT ****** Season 26 Mid Season Review

[Tom van Ostade]

Obviously, a requirement for the reverse grid to work, would be both agreement with the rule, and gentleman behaviour, both for the attacker and defender. Not being happy with the reverse grid rule, but starting anyway, will always result in a retirement, be it from you or the opponent you just rammed in your impatience.

In IndyCar, the racing rule for many years was that blocking the inside of a corner before entry was forbidden (it is now relaxed). I don't necessarily agree with this rule, but when moderators are worried about carnage with a reverse grid, they might introduce this in the respective league's racing etiquette.

From a personal point of view, racing etiquette at any series other than the Graduates Cup is quite appaling to be honest. The main train of thought seems to be "If I clash with someone, let the moderators sort it out". I see a lot of "Sorry I hit you, please feel free to submit a report if you feel so inclined", which is too little, too late, after wrecking someone elses race. Drivers should take more effort to avoid collisions. I see a lot of it comes from moderators looking at a collision as an isolated incident, when in reality, there could have been more close calls before, which should have told the drivers to take more care. Treating each incident as an isolated event results in less harsh penalties, which also have no effect on future events whatsoever. Perhaps indicating driver etiquettes should be raised (especially with reverse grids), for instance banning blocking (at least for a while) could result in the possibility to introduce new, exciting formats.

I have to admit, I tried blocking in the F2 fun VIR race, in the first corner on the last lap, and that backfired badly! Sometimes I can't help myself but to try it out, since I know it is allowed, although it ends in a collision 99 % of the time. I think best would be to ban blocking, which means sticking to the racing line, even if you are being challenged for position. It may be a disadvantage one lap, but an advantage the lap after that .

[Robert Fleurke]

Obviously, a requirement for the reverse grid to work, would be both agreement with the rule, and gentleman behaviour, both for the attacker and defender. Not being happy with the reverse grid rule, but starting anyway, will always result in a retirement, be it from you or the opponent you just rammed in your impatience.

In IndyCar, the racing rule for many years was that blocking the inside of a corner before entry was forbidden (it is now relaxed). I don't necessarily agree with this rule, but when moderators are worried about carnage with a reverse grid, they might introduce this in the respective league's racing etiquette.

From a personal point of view, racing etiquette at any series other than the Graduates Cup is quite appaling to be honest. The main train of thought seems to be "If I clash with someone, let the moderators sort it out". I see a lot of "Sorry I hit you, please feel free to submit a report if you feel so inclined", which is too little, too late, after wrecking someone elses race. Drivers should take more effort to avoid collisions. I see a lot of it comes from moderators looking at a collision as an isolated incident, when in reality, there could have been more close calls before, which should have told the drivers to take more care. Treating each incident as an isolated event results in less harsh penalties, which also have no effect on future events whatsoever. Perhaps indicating driver etiquettes should be raised (especially with reverse grids), for instance banning blocking (at least for a while) could result in the possibility to introduce new, exciting formats.

I have to admit, I tried blocking in the F2 fun VIR race, in the first corner on the last lap, and that backfired badly! Sometimes I can't help myself but to try it out, since I know it is allowed, although it ends in a collision 99 % of the time. I think best would be to ban blocking, which means sticking to the racing line, even if you are being challenged for position. It may be a disadvantage one lap, but an advantage the lap after that .

I hope you confuse blocking with defensive driving Tommie. Blocking isn't allowed! Thanks for your suggestions.

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette

Blocking is not allowed, but defensive driving is allowed. If a driver moves off the racing line before the car behind attempts to overtake, this is defensive driving. If they move off the racing line after the car behind has started to move across to overtake, this is blocking. If a driver is driving defensively they may move off the line and back onto it only once per straight/section.

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/blocking_weaving

[Walter Conn]

I am not too fond of reverse grids. It is difficult for an amateur driver to withstand the pressure from having an entire field bottled up behind. (edit: Also it is difficult for a driver in the middle of the field to be patient when overtaking a slower car while a faster car is applying pressure from behind.) I think it works better if a faster driver volunteers to skip Qualifying to start in the back. I have not participated in many of the Friday races lately, so do not put too much weight in my opinion on reverse grids. Of course, I would still participate in the races .

Perhaps a suggestion of my own, we could use the phrase, "Balance of Performance" to describe our handicapping system.

Last but not least, thanks to everyone that makes our races possible. It has been a lot of fun for me this season.

Thank you!  

[Ronniepeterson]

I see a lot of "Sorry I hit you, please feel free to submit a report if you feel so inclined", which is too little, too late, after wrecking someone elses race.

Yeah right Tommie I really enjoyed the recent 69x race at Aintree when some hot head completely lost it at Turn 1, ended up the wrong way round on a blind bend, leaving me nowhere to go and wrecked my race before it had even started. Sure these things happen but yes an apology would have been nice  

Just because other people don't/won't apologise does not mean they are not involved in as many if not more incidents. Plus why do people assume that if you apologise you are to blame which simply does not automatically follow.

Saying sorry does not make one a bad driver, far from it.

[Tom van Ostade]

Obviously, a requirement for the reverse grid to work, would be both agreement with the rule, and gentleman behaviour, both for the attacker and defender. Not being happy with the reverse grid rule, but starting anyway, will always result in a retirement, be it from you or the opponent you just rammed in your impatience.

In IndyCar, the racing rule for many years was that blocking the inside of a corner before entry was forbidden (it is now relaxed). I don't necessarily agree with this rule, but when moderators are worried about carnage with a reverse grid, they might introduce this in the respective league's racing etiquette.

From a personal point of view, racing etiquette at any series other than the Graduates Cup is quite appaling to be honest. The main train of thought seems to be "If I clash with someone, let the moderators sort it out". I see a lot of "Sorry I hit you, please feel free to submit a report if you feel so inclined", which is too little, too late, after wrecking someone elses race. Drivers should take more effort to avoid collisions. I see a lot of it comes from moderators looking at a collision as an isolated incident, when in reality, there could have been more close calls before, which should have told the drivers to take more care. Treating each incident as an isolated event results in less harsh penalties, which also have no effect on future events whatsoever. Perhaps indicating driver etiquettes should be raised (especially with reverse grids), for instance banning blocking (at least for a while) could result in the possibility to introduce new, exciting formats.

I have to admit, I tried blocking in the F2 fun VIR race, in the first corner on the last lap, and that backfired badly! Sometimes I can't help myself but to try it out, since I know it is allowed, although it ends in a collision 99 % of the time. I think best would be to ban blocking, which means sticking to the racing line, even if you are being challenged for position. It may be a disadvantage one lap, but an advantage the lap after that .

I hope you confuse blocking with defensive driving Tommie. Blocking isn't allowed! Thanks for your suggestions.

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette

Blocking is not allowed, but defensive driving is allowed. If a driver moves off the racing line before the car behind attempts to overtake, this is defensive driving. If they move off the racing line after the car behind has started to move across to overtake, this is blocking. If a driver is driving defensively they may move off the line and back onto it only once per straight/section.

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/blocking_weaving

In IndyCar, defensive driving was considered blocking, although now, with a new Race Director, it isn't any more. In real racing, I don't like it, but in simracing, defensive driving banned could be more fun, as it promotes overtaking.

[Tom van Ostade]

I see a lot of "Sorry I hit you, please feel free to submit a report if you feel so inclined", which is too little, too late, after wrecking someone elses race.

Yeah right Tommie I really enjoyed the recent 69x race at Aintree when some hot head completely lost it at Turn 1, ended up the wrong way round on a blind bend, leaving me nowhere to go and wrecked my race before it had even started. Sure these things happen but yes an apology would have been nice  

Just because other people don't/won't apologise does not mean they are not involved in as many if not more incidents. Plus why do people assume that if you apologise you are to blame which simply does not automatically follow.

Saying sorry does not make one a bad driver, far from it.

You really know how to push my buttons. Spa 1966 and Mosport Friday F2. Nuff said.

Racing with (or rather against) you is no fun, despite out similar pace. Discussing with you (or rather against) is no fun either. I may have performed some bone headed moves this season, but so do you, so don't attack me when your racing standards seem as bad as my own.

Also, your attack is completely off topic, which makes it pointless. It isn't about apologies or blame, it's about avoiding crashes.

[Ronniepeterson]

I see a lot of "Sorry I hit you, please feel free to submit a report if you feel so inclined", which is too little, too late, after wrecking someone elses race.

Yeah right Tommie I really enjoyed the recent 69x race at Aintree when some hot head completely lost it at Turn 1, ended up the wrong way round on a blind bend, leaving me nowhere to go and wrecked my race before it had even started. Sure these things happen but yes an apology would have been nice 

Just because other people don't/won't apologise does not mean they are not involved in as many if not more incidents. Plus why do people assume that if you apologise you are to blame which simply does not automatically follow.

Saying sorry does not make one a bad driver, far from it.

You really know how to push my buttons. Spa 1966 and Mosport Friday F2. Nuff said.

Racing with (or rather against) you is no fun, despite out similar pace. Discussing with you (or rather against) is no fun either. I may have performed some bone headed moves this season, but so do you, so don't attack me when your racing standards seem as bad as my own.

Also, your attack is completely off topic, which makes it pointless. It isn't about apologies or blame, it's about avoiding crashes.

No attack from me just defence in the face of continued and sustained attack for no good reason as far as I am concerned. My response to your direct and personal comment was hardly off topic. If it was not you at Aintree in the 69x race I apologise. As for the F2 race at Mosport I thought it was a good scrap but if you saw it differently I apologise again.

[Tom van Ostade]

My initial comment didn't even involve you.

[maddog]

I don't usually look at the start of race replays.  By that I mean the practice, to make perfect.  But at Tuesdays Clermont race, I noticed a sneaky reset during practice.  Is this legal - has there been a rule change?  If not, what penalty is available, for cruel persons posting an incident report?  

This also happened at Zeltweg, where the same dubious deed was done.  It's an obvious advantage, so some clarity is called for.  

[BadBlood]

Chaps - most of this is nothing to do with the Mid Season review. I have quite enough to wade through already thanks.

Keep to the point please.

[maddog]

Personal rivalries are apt to intrude, but this would seem the spot to discuss all general racing matters.  With no guidance over this reset matter, shall we assume resets have become legal?  

[Hristo Itchov]

I thought I'd share my opinion on handicapping (not that I haven't in the past), because I think many people are missing some important bits.

First, the problem with handicapping by assigning cars to each driver is that the way GPL cars are, performance is very much connected to the type of track you race on. There is rarely a performance order of the cars that can be applied to all tracks, not even with original 67s. That's why I was always against that type of handicap - it was subjective, it was situational, it led to many incidents (e.g. fast driver in slow car vs. slow driver in fast car) and it distorted the championship standings.

Apart from performance issues, there is also the reliability aspect. This one goes way back to when we had pitstops and to some extent the token system. Let's take the 67 Honda as an example - it has potential to produce a very good lap time, especially on a fast track, but push it like that in a race and you're likely not going to see the chequered flag. Yet some people sometimes would get lucky and reach the finish. It's impossible to handicap such cars properly, because some would argue they're overhandicapped for the car's reliability, and other that they're underhandicapped for the car's performance. When you create a handicap system based on hotlap times alone, it's just not good enough.

In my opinion, and I've said it many times in the past, the most fair handicap system appears to be the one where you get limited car choice based on championship standings. Does it usually lead to the same drivers winning races? Yes, most of the time, but then again, do you really want to take away wins from those who deserve to have them? The idea of a handicap system is to keep gaps in races close and championship alive, and that's exactly what the standings-based car choice limitation did. I never quite understood what's with the almost fanatical denial of trying out that system with the 65 cars, yet nobody minded it was used for 66 and other divisions. 65 was such a mess for many years, by having people drive crappy cars and getting involved in unnecessary incidents, or being robbed of any real chance to fight for victories on some tracks. Yet it gave people who are normally mid-field, a relatively easy way of getting top 3 results, despite that they kept making obvious mistakes while driving. I've had some races where I've been inch-perfect in a BT7, yet someone in a faster car would finish ahead of me despite driving irregularly and sliding all around. This just never seemed right. How do you pass such a driver without taking massive risks and being exposed to other people's lack of ability?

Anyway, I hope for the sake of fairness and competitiveness, that some changes are made that should have been made long ago. Not that it concerns me directly, but it's a shame to see this topic arises again and again, year after year, and almost nothing is learned from people's experience each season. I know there are some who don't care about fairness and just want easy results, but should the league really cater to such kind of people?

[maddog]

First, the problem with handicapping by assigning cars to each driver is that the way GPL cars are, performance is very much connected to the type of track you race on. There is rarely a performance order of the cars that can be applied to all tracks, not even with original 67s. That's why I was always against that type of handicap - it was subjective, it was situational, it led to many incidents (e.g. fast driver in slow car vs. slow driver in fast car) and it distorted the championship standings.

Firstly, nice to hear from you Hristo.  I hope all is well, and you are still able to compete somewhere online  Yes, opinions vary on handicapping, just as handicapping itself varies, with varying degrees of success.  In my opinion, the idea is to mix up the faster and slower drivers, to increase the challenge for all.  I think most drivers want a challenge, and some variety to that challenge.  While some prefer something simpler.  Some spend many hours investing in a perfect setup, and perfect knowledge for each track.  And unexpected, and unpredictable reasons for having races ruined, after so much trouble, are very upsetting.  Those who simply come for some fun, and more realistic racing than the Ai can give them, probably want cars of a similar speed, because that makes the challenge more exciting.

In the real world, drivers usually drive the same car all year.  Unlike 2014, this usually meant different cars had an advantage at different tracks.   But overall, the best cars had the best chance for the championship.  In our world, a single assigned chassis, would mean the least work for our Moderators, on a race by race basis.  There'd be some variety in performance at different tracks, and a more colourful grid, with different shades of racing green.   There would be accidents caused by different car and driver combinations, as with in any equalizing  handicap system.  It depends on how equalizing it is.  But with the same chassis driver combination all season, it's possible to learn how each behaves. 

Motor Racing should always have a random factor.  Predictable becomes boring.  Handicaps add interest.  Making them enjoyable for all is the biggest challenge.  Very few at Ukgpl seem interested in voicing their opinion, but expect moderators to choose the best system, to please the most drivers, and the most exciting competition for all.  Let's wish them luck !

[BadBlood]

You are right about the reset rule Martin but I would never enforce it at a long track such as Charade or Spa.

[maddog]

Fair enough, but without specifics, you will find competitors stretching the rules.