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  • S17D1 Albi: March 22, 2009
March 22, 2009, 09:58:16 PM +0000 - Albi (1959-80) - UKGPL Season 17 (2009) Division 1
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Samb
 Reed Racing
BRM P115 F1 1967 6 +1.273
113.665mph
1 51:02.279
111.600mph
42 1:12.095
112.864mph
Goodyear  
Will Tway
 Antipasti Racing
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 5 +1.094
113.950mph
2 +12.700
111.139mph
42 1:11.862
113.230mph
Firestone  
FullMetalGasket
 HikiWazaRacing
Honda RA300 F1 1967 8 +1.937
112.620mph
3 +20.216
110.868mph
42 1:12.358
112.454mph
Firestone  
Turkey Machine
 Clark-Hill Racing
Lotus 49 (Cosworth) F1 1967 3 +0.103
115.553mph
4 (+4) +33.648
110.387mph
42 1:10.527
115.373mph
Firestone  
Doni Yourth
 
BRM P115 F1 1967 9 +2.786
111.312mph
5 +1:09.627
109.119mph
42 1:12.830
111.725mph
Goodyear  
Hristo Itchov
 HikiWazaRacing
Honda RA300 F1 1967 1 1:10.314
115.723mph
6 (+1) +1L
113.061mph
41 1:10.904
114.760mph
Firestone  
EvilClive
 HikiWazaRacing
Honda RA300 F1 1967 7 +1.773
112.876mph
7 +1:28.905
109.754mph
41 1:11.988
113.032mph
Firestone  
Jack O'Ferrall
 Reed Racing
BRM P115 F1 1967 13 +4.419
108.880mph
8 +2:23.220
107.828mph
41 1:13.568
110.604mph
Goodyear  
bernie
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 10 +3.533
110.186mph
9 +2L
106.353mph
40 1:13.397
110.862mph
Firestone  
Clive Loynes
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Lotus 49 (Cosworth) F1 1967 4 +0.537
114.845mph
10 +7L
108.034mph
35 1:10.945
114.693mph
Disco
Firestone  
Napo
 
BRM P115 F1 1967 11 +3.837
109.734mph
11 +18L
107.845mph
24 1:12.500
112.233mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Gasper Lednik
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Lotus 49 (Cosworth) F1 1967 2 +0.077
115.596mph
12 +35L
111.931mph
7 1:11.433
113.910mph
Disco
Firestone  
Michael Turner
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 12 +4.273
109.093mph
13 +38L
95.839mph
4 1:16.567
106.272mph
Disco
Firestone  
1 UKGPL
 
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 14 15 DNS ---
---
Goodyear  

Moderator's Report

Since taking on the moderator's role for Div 1 and the instigation of the "Srou court system", life has been fairly quiet for me with only a handful of incidents to comment on.

However, this race has more than made up for that !!

I will apologise in advance for not only the length of this report but also the delay in publishing it, but I think that there are some issues and decisions involved that needed to be carefully considered and explained.

The issues raised from some of the incidents in this race have been debated at some length by the moderator's in private where many views have been expressed. Not only in terms of what was observed at Albi, but also looking forward to see how we might avoid similar situations in the future.
The incidents in the race provoked some lively exchanges on the public forum with members posting comments from both sides of the pit wall. This is naturally quite healthy, provided that things are not allowed to get too personal or entrenched.
The whole purpose of moderation is to diffuse such volatile situations by judging the actions of drivers impartially and resolving contentious incidents as fairly as possible.


The first two reported incidents are what one might call a "normal" subjects for moderation and have been dealt with as such.

The other incidents submitted to the court have been assessed, not only as individual incidents but also as part of a connected series of events involving the same drivers.

The moderators can see no way to edit or publish a rule to specifically cover the situation in this race, that would not surely cause more problems and arguments than it solves in the future. Therefore I have had to apply the rules and penalties as they stood at the start of this race to the incidents as they appeared.

Hindsight ( a powerful tool) suggests that Hristo might have been better advised to allow Jethro to unlap himself, as his lead was so substantial that he was in very little danger of being caught by the second place car.

Jethro appears to have become increasingly frustrated to the point that he made a gross error of judgement in rear ending Hristo and loses further places as a penalty after fighting his way back into the points.

A little red mist seems to have obscured clear thinking as the race progressed.

Over the course of a few laps, both drivers appear to have become severly irritated by the actions of the other, each believing that they were entitled to drive and take up track positions as they did.

Hristo appears to have interpreted the rule referring to drivers being lapped, as meaning that he should not have his race compromised by a lapped car and one can see how that interpretation could be arrived at.
Unfortunately, the rule in question was never formulated to cover an instance such as this, where a potentially faster car that has caught the leader believes it can and should "unlap" itself, as it was generally assumed that the lapped car would by definition be significantly slower.

We cannot have a rule that forbids a car unlapping itself, but similarly, we cannot force the car 1 lap in the lead to yield track position if they do not wish to.
We could have a position where the 2nd place car was only a second or so behind, maybe not close enough to generate blue flags, but close enough that the leading car would not wish to yield his position to a lapped car no matter how fast that was.

From Jethro's viewpoint he felt he had a car that was potentially faster and that he was being deliberately baulked and blocked by Hristo. That in no way mitigates the rear end shunt that ended Hristo's race.
If Jethro had achieved the pass, it is likely that Hristo would have been able to stay in his slipstream long enough to cause Jethro to be shown blue flags, forcing Jethro to yield position and start the whole scene over again.

As a result, both were at times guilty, to varying degrees at different times, of "Ungentlemanly Conduct" and/or "Aggressive driving".
There is within the rules, the option of disqualifying both drivers from the results on these grounds alone.


However, (in the belief that this will not be repeated or carried forward)
on top of the penalties accrued for their transgressions of the rules that were in force at the start of this race, I propose an official warning to both drivers for the next 3 Division 1 races that their conduct on the track will be monitored and if the moderators believe that there are instances where driving standards are not maintained an appropriate penalty will be applied irrespective of any report to the court system.

















Server replay time: 0h42m40s

1)42:40
Turn 1
Jethro is attempting to pass evilclive and moves to the inside line.
Clive thinks that he has left enough room for the Lotus to pass and keeps just about to the left hand side of the circuit as he turns in. Jethro appears to have gone in too deep and drifts wide at the apex, collecting the Honda and taking them both into the haybales on the outside of the circuit


side by side contact
1 place penalty



Server replay time: 0h42m45s

Clive's Honda rebounds from the haybales and runs backwards across the circuit and off of the racing line ( Clive allows this to continue until he is against the grass on the inside and out of the way) before attempting to restart and assess any damage.
Meanwhile Jethro who was against the haybales on the outside of the circuit attempts to rejoin the tarmac. Unfortunately Bernie is taking the racing line through T1 and is confronted with the rear of a very slow moving Lotus. Both cars are bounced against the haybales.

Jethro did try to stay as far off the circuit as possible whilst attempting a re-join, but unfortunately his car is only visible to Bernie at the last moment.

Whilst Jethro and Bernie re-compose themselves Clive makes good his escape and Hristo laps both of the stranded cars.

Although Jethro's rejoin cannot be described as "reckless", the rules state that he should remain stationary until he is sure tha the track behind is clear.

Bad rejoin - 1 place penalty


Server replay time: 0h49m53s

S/F straight
By this point in the race Hristo had lapped Jethro when he was involved in the "off" with Clive. Jethro has managed to close the gap over several laps and has attempted 3 or 4 passing moves to "unlap" himself, so far without success.
Jethro gets a better drive out of the last corner and is clearly gaining on Hristo as the approach the s/f line. He would in my opinion got alongside H before T1 ( whether or not he could have outbraked H, having failed at several other corners is open to conjecture).
However, H pulls across in front of J to take the inside line, a single move which he was entitled to make. Jethro swings to the outside of the circuit to press his attack, but H weaves back in front of him, which is now moving into the realms of weaving and blocking and Hristo prevents Jethro from getting alongside.

The published rules in force at the start of this race expressly forbid weaving and blocking under ANY circumstances.

The problem that we have here is somewhat unique in the history of UKGPL, and has caused the moderators to burn much midnight oil in trying to come devise a new ruling(s) that would cover this situation.

Clearly, a driver must be permitted to "unlap" himself if he is able to do so, otherwise we might as well decree that once lapped a driver MUST hold station regardless of the speed of the leaders car.

By the same token, one cannot rule that the leading car MUST "give way" and allow the pass to take place.






Server replay time: 0h50m23s

50:23
Jethro again gets a better drive onto the main straight with the Lotus and picks up the slipstream from the Honda.
As he moves to the left of the track to line up the pass H also moves left, but only to half way across the track in a single move
(quite legal).
There is still more than enough room for the Lotus to continue and contest the braking zone for DD.
Jethro appears to lift slightly when H moves left and (he may have thought that H was going to blatantly block him, but he did not) J loses momentum and the possible attempted pass and H clearly outbrakes J into DD.
The demon braking from the inside line sends H a little wide between the two apexes and J takes his car very wide on the first apex allowing him to straighten the second and get a quicker exit.
As they approach the right hand kink after DD, H still has a clear lead and is entitled to take the racing line through the apex of the corner. J meanwhile is clearly travelling faster after his better exit from DD and is closing quickly on the rear of the Honda.
Until the point of contact I cannot discern any attempt to reduce or check the speed of the Lotus nor can I detect anything but full acceleration from H. J runs into the rear wheel of the Honda at the apex of the corner.
The initial contact pushes H sideways and he somehow manages to prevent a spin but is in a slide. The impact causes J to also run wide and follow the sliding Honda hitting the same rear wheel again and removing it. Although J lifts off the throttle he does not seem to brake. H is forced to retire and J continues.

This was a blatant rear end shunt under acceleration.
Whether born out of sheer frustration or a totally misjudged attempt to set up a passing opportunity is questionable.
What is not in doubt is that as a result the clear leader was taken out of the race with only a very short distance to go.


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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 17 (2009) Division 1 - Albi - Mar 22  (Read 12073 times)
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Will Tway
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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2009, 01:06:50 AM +0000 »

The wife had me wiring up a new hall light so naturally it took me 1 hour longer than planned... Shocked...
so I was really late to qually and eeeked a decent lap in at the end. Think I lost 3 spots before the end of the first lap but quickly made them back up as a few folks must of had problems. Later in the race, I passed a few more that had longer pit stops and was chasing Sam but not gaining at all. The gap was steady at around 10 seconds for several laps. I was expecting a Lotus to creep up any minute but it never came. I thought if I can just maintain, I might get 3rd for Team Antipasti.....
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 01:50:32 AM +0000 by Will Tway » Logged

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Gasper Lednik
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2009, 05:45:56 AM +0000 »

Damn piston.
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Michael Turner
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2009, 11:17:42 AM +0000 »

Another disaster though I at least managed to get in a couple of laps before another screen freeze took me out (and I hope I didn't take anybody else out as a consequence). I'm not sure what's causing it  -  it isn't an overheating issue and is more likely to be a scenery related problem as it always happens at the same spot - on the start straight. I've tried different cards (880GTS and 9800GTX+) with the same effect. It might have something to do with my using D3D but when I switch to OpenGL the whole game slows to a crawl. Further experimentation is called for. Just for information - if anybody has any suggestions -I'm currently using Windows XP,  AMD Athlon 64x2 4600+, Geforce 8800GTS, 4Gb RAM, Audigy 2 ZS Audio and I don't have any problems with the other racing and flight sims that I play (GTL, IL2, FS9).
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vosblod
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2009, 11:46:48 AM +0000 »

another screen freeze took me out (and I hope I didn't take anybody else out as a consequence). I'm not sure what's causing it  -  it isn't an overheating issue and is more likely to be a scenery related problem as it always happens at the same spot - on the start straight. I've tried different cards (880GTS and 9800GTX+) with the same effect. It might have something to do with my using D3D but when I switch to OpenGL the whole game slows to a crawl.
Sounds like it might be related to the pit lane freeze problem, some info in this post https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5903.msg102127#msg102127
Likely to be a D3D / rasterizer issue... There was a lot more info on RSC, shame it's down
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Clive Loynes
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« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2009, 12:45:56 PM +0000 »

Damn piston.

Hard luck Gasper, much the same here.

Thought that I was cruising to a steady 2nd behind Hristo when something in the engine went "ping".

That happened at the second to last corner on lap 29 and resulted in a lack of power that saw me understeer off behind the crowd.  Did my second pit stop anyway but when I cam out it was plain that all I could do was limp to the finish if lucky.  I wasn't and it stopped completely on lap 37.

Then I watched Jethro and Hristo.

It took me a while to figure out what was going on but Jethro plainly wanted to un-lap himself and get after Tim but Hristo wasn't having any of it.  It looked as though it was going to end in tears and I was right on that count.

I wonder what would have happened if Hristo had let Jethro through and it had then transpired that the server had just dropped Jethro for a lap?  I can see why both drivers were doing what they were doing.  Interesting................................

From a Soggy view point, phew........thanks Jethro!   clap  Saved our bacon there.



PS   Looking at the Numptygraph, I think that Jethro may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick as far as Lotus pit stops are concerned.  He may have done a 32 second stop and an 11 second stop instead of two 11 second stops.



« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:53:02 PM +0000 by Clive Loynes » Logged

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Clive Loynes
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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2009, 12:56:50 PM +0000 »

Another disaster though I at least managed to get in a couple of laps before another screen freeze took me out (and I hope I didn't take anybody else out as a consequence). I'm not sure what's causing it  -  it isn't an overheating issue and is more likely to be a scenery related problem as it always happens at the same spot - on the start straight.   

I think this is usually a video driver problem.  Certainly the newer nvidia drivers can cause it.

Think my nvidia drivers date from 2007 and there is no way that I will update them.
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2009, 01:08:13 PM +0000 »

I'm totally disgusted with what happened. How on Earth does someone who makes a bunch of mistakes, falls a lap down and then gets lapped thinks he has any chance left to race the leader and put both him and himself at risk repeatedly at almost each corner is beyond me...  Angry

I had a good qualifying and I didn't want to risk with the engine on the start so I even moved to the right to let the Lotuses by and then just settled behind them, waiting for their pitstops. All in all had a nearly perfect drive and after the pitstop had Sam at a big distance back in 2nd so I just focused on maintaining my rhythm and saving the engine. I could've easily gone half a second faster if I was to use the full capabilities of the car and take fastest lap without problem but there was no need for that.

After lapping Jethro I had a slight off before T2 so he managed to catch up in my slipstream and despite knowing I'm the leader he raced me as if he was racing for position. I thought ok, he'd realize that now and back off, but nope, he kept racing me for the remainder of the race going against all rules. I would understand if he was much faster, but that wasn't the case and the only reason he was able to battle me was due to his engine power and getting in my slipstream. Instead of realizing that and back off whenever he'd get too close he kept attacking me like crazy and even going over the grass in a risky attempt to pass me, it totally pissed me off. I tried to remind him he should back off by doing a bit of weaving and blocking him, so he would just settle, but no... Since when is the leader supposed to let backmarkers who lost all rights to battle with the leading cars that lapped them? There wasn't even the slightest of chance for him to catch whoever was ahead because that car was at least 3-4 seconds into the distance with just 3 laps to go. At the same time nobody was challenging him from behind, so in the end he was just trying to race me for no obvious reason. How is it justified to say I was slower when I have lapped him and I was merely saving my engine otherwise he'd stand no chance? Really, I'm totally disgusted with this...

-=Hristo=-
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Turkey Machine
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2009, 01:54:13 PM +0000 »

Damn piston.

Hard luck Gasper, much the same here.

Thought that I was cruising to a steady 2nd behind Hristo when something in the engine went "ping".

That happened at the second to last corner on lap 29 and resulted in a lack of power that saw me understeer off behind the crowd.  Did my second pit stop anyway but when I cam out it was plain that all I could do was limp to the finish if lucky.  I wasn't and it stopped completely on lap 37.

Then I watched Jethro and Hristo.

It took me a while to figure out what was going on but Jethro plainly wanted to un-lap himself and get after Tim but Hristo wasn't having any of it.  It looked as though it was going to end in tears and I was right on that count.

I wonder what would have happened if Hristo had let Jethro through and it had then transpired that the server had just dropped Jethro for a lap?  I can see why both drivers were doing what they were doing.  Interesting................................

From a Soggy view point, phew........thanks Jethro!   clap  Saved our bacon there.



PS   Looking at the Numptygraph, I think that Jethro may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick as far as Lotus pit stops are concerned.  He may have done a 32 second stop and an 11 second stop instead of two 11 second stops.




What am I, a martyr or something?! Tongue

With regard to pitstops, I always thought that it was a case of, at least for the double stops, 32 seconds for the 1st stop and 11 seconds for the 2nd stop. But a mod would have to confirm that, since I guess it's open to interpretation. It's certainly a different way of looking at it.

EDIT: Waitasec, with pitstops, is it you can do 1 pitstop at 32 seconds, or 2 pitstops at 11 seconds each? That woulda saved me about 15-20 seconds in total! Still came out ahead of Clive though. Cheesy
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 02:12:18 PM +0000 by Turkey Machine » Logged

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john roberts
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2009, 02:24:09 PM +0000 »

After lapping Jethro I had a slight off before T2 so he managed to catch up in my slipstream and despite knowing I'm the leader he raced me as if he was racing for position. I thought ok, he'd realize that now and back off, but nope, he kept racing me for the remainder of the race going against all rules.

from what i understand you had a large lead and that being the case i would have just let him unlap himself , however there is no rule against somebody driving as fast as they can go . there is a rule about cars about to be lapped , but nothing about once they are .

I tried to remind him he should back off by doing a bit of weaving and blocking him, so he would just settle, but no...

now this is against the rules

"Blocking is not allowed, but defensive driving is allowed. If a driver moves off the racing line before the car behind attempts to overtake, this is defensive driving. If they move off the racing line after the car behind has started to move across to overtake, this is blocking. If a driver is driving defensively they may move off the line and back onto it only once per straight/section."

don't you think weaving and blocking is being rather silly and dangerous in a league race ?

john
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2009, 03:07:47 PM +0000 »

jr, you fail to grasp something about both things you mention.

First of all, if Jethro was much faster than me, sure, I'd have let him go without hesitation. That wasn't the case though and if I didn't have that slight off he'd have never caught up with me and also even if I had let him by, as soon as he had no slipstream to use he'd be just blocking my way infront and getting blue flags. I can't afford to slow down because as you should already know there is a safe pace and rhythm you fall into and slowing down only distracts you and is much more risky thing to do, so no, I don't agree I should slow down just to make it easy for backmarkers who were lapped. I was already off the actual pace of the Honda by attempting to save my engine and that's enough of a distraction.

And second, about the rule you mention - the rule is for when you're fighting for position. I wasn't blocking his attempts to take the lead, so it's totally irrelevant and also, I wasn't blocking him constantly, I did it a few times AFTER he spent 2 full laps making all sorts of attacks trying to pass me, so it was meant to get him back down to Earth. Even if he had not hit me and ended my race he already breached the rule of challenging my lead after falling a lap down. I've had it happen with other people in the past, but they were reasonable enough to realize they have no right to attack after a few corners, but for this to happen for 3 full laps is outrageous.
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Turkey Machine
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2009, 03:16:02 PM +0000 »

For the record Hristo, there is no mention in the rules about no blocking / weaving only being valid when you're passing for position. As I interpret it, and I think others do, it's a blanket "no weaving / blocking". The fact you nearly ran me off the road twice also irks me.
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john roberts
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2009, 03:29:09 PM +0000 »

jr, you fail to grasp something about both things you mention.

i was just making two points

First of all, if Jethro was much faster than me, sure, I'd have let him go without hesitation. That wasn't the case though and if I didn't have that slight off he'd have never caught up with me and also even if I had let him by, as soon as he had no slipstream to use he'd be just blocking my way infront and getting blue flags. I can't afford to slow down because as you should already know there is a safe pace and rhythm you fall into and slowing down only distracts you and is much more risky thing to do, so no, I don't agree I should slow down just to make it easy for backmarkers who were lapped. I was already off the actual pace of the Honda by attempting to save my engine and that's enough of a distraction.

i never said anything and yours or Jethro's speed only that "from what i understand you had a large lead and that being the case i would have just let him unlap himself" , as this is what i'd have done .


And second, about the rule you mention - the rule is for when you're fighting for position.

no it isn't it under racing Racing Etiquette 

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette

something to be done at all times .

john
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john roberts
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« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2009, 03:50:39 PM +0000 »

I wasn't blocking him constantly, I did it a few times AFTER he spent 2 full laps making all sorts of attacks trying to pass me, so it was meant to get him back down to Earth.

it does not say constant blocking but "Blocking is not allowed" so even if you had only done it once and not a few times it would still be against the rules .

  Even if he had not hit me and ended my race he already breached the rule of challenging my lead after falling a lap down.

where is this rule ?

could you please show me it as i don't believe there is one .

john
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Turkey Machine
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« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2009, 03:57:11 PM +0000 »

Maybe it's a "Hristo" rule. Undecided
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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2009, 06:53:20 PM +0000 »

Hi guys, sorry I couldnt make it, was 1st day back at work for 2wks, and i was bloody knackered in the evening, and since it was Albi tight grids and circult I didnt want to wreck anyones race because of it.
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