Proposed rule change for Season 20

[Phil Thornton]

There was some discussion at the Season 19 Mid-Season review on a proposal to modify the existing rules on blocking and weaving.  It was agreed that a poll would be set up at the end of the season to gauge driver opinion before Season 20 got underway.

The existing rules on blocking and weaving are published in the Etiquette section.  It currently states:

“Blocking is not allowed, but defensive driving is allowed. If a driver moves off the racing line before the car behind attempts to overtake, this is defensive driving. If they move off the racing line after the car behind has started to move across to overtake, this is blocking. If a driver is driving defensively they may move off the line and back onto it only once per straight/section.”

The Penalty Guidelines expand on the rule and detail the severity of penalty that would be applied for various degrees of weaving and blocking.

In GPL we need a concise and unequivocal rule that can easily be understood by everyone.  Using language that can be interpreted in several ways, as is quite often the case in the FIA rulebook (for example look at Chapter IV, para 2 sub para b on page 17), causes confusion and makes the moderator’s job much harder.  Consequently any rule changes would mean changing the existing concise rule to another equally concise rule. 

The objection to the current rule is that it allows a driver to make two changes of direction per straight section, this means a move from the left of the track to the right of the track and then back to the left is quite legal.  Whilst this can be employed by the lead driver to defend the inside line in a braking zone and then get back on the racing line to take the corner; it also allows the lead car to weave in order to “break the tow” whilst the cars are accelerating along the straight.

The proposed change to the rule would simply prevent the lead driver from moving back onto the racing line once they have moved off it.  In effect only allow one change of direction per straight section.  That means if a driver opted for a defensive inside line for a corner they would not be allowed to get back onto the racing line until they reached the apex of the corner.  In effect this would make weaving to break a tow impossible.  However even this rule wouldn’t prevent some exiting a corner not on the racing line, then moving onto the racing line before making their allowed one move off the racing line.

Please vote for either:

keeping the existing “two move” rule:

“Blocking is not allowed, but defensive driving is allowed. If a driver moves off the racing line before the car behind attempts to overtake, this is defensive driving. If they move off the racing line after the car behind has started to move across to overtake, this is blocking. If a driver is driving defensively they may move off the line and back onto it only once per straight/section.”

Or

adopting a new “one move” rule:

“Blocking is not allowed, but defensive driving is allowed. If a driver moves off the racing line before the car behind attempts to overtake, this is defensive driving. If they move off the racing line after the car behind has started to move across to overtake, this is blocking.  If a driver is driving defensively they may move off the racing line to take up a defensive line but may not move back onto the racing line whilst on the same straight/section”

[john roberts]

In GPL we need a concise and unequivocal rule that can easily be understood by everyone.  Using language that can be interpreted in several ways, as is quite often the case in the FIA rulebook (for example look at Chapter IV, para 2 sub para b on page 17), causes confusion and makes the moderator’s job much harder.  Consequently any rule changes would mean changing the existing concise rule to another equally concise rule. [/size]

why do we need a unequivocal rule ? don't we have moderators for that very point ?

also you should say that the FIA rule "causes confustion" that is your point of view and others might have a different point of view .

I think you should be able to defend as many moves as you like , but weaving should be against the rules . not everything is black and white !

john

[Hristo Itchov]

I agree, every situation should be judged objectively because you never have the exact same situation twice. The only way to really deal with it by rule is to do what they did in Indycar (whoever watched the recent Edmonton race saw that) - defensive driving and blocking being treated as one and forbidden altogether. It's extremely stupid in my opinion and kills one whole aspect of genuine racing...

To me it's very easy to differentiate between defensive driving and blocking. Defensive driving is taking lines to protect your position better (i.e. inside line before a corner), but not changing your lines once an opponent has a run on you, especially during braking, corner exit or when they're very close to you in general. That would be blocking. All in all, just make it predictable for the opponent behind and not rely them on taking action to avoid you and save both from an accident.

The only unknown here is how close the cars have to be before changing lines would be considered blocking - it's usually the average time of reaction that the driver behind can execute to avoid you without lifting up or braking. In the end it's down to common sense - all should learn from any mistakes they make in regard to that and not repeat it, especially in the same battle or race, and preferably keep it in mind for future races before something bad happens.

Also, one has to take into account blind spots, but apart from the start where you have lots of cars around you, it's fairly simple - if you know you're battling someone and they suddenly disappear off your sight, it's very likely that they're (99%) in your blind spot so you can't just change lines freely knowing that.

The remaining 1% is for when their server connection makes them disappear for a few seconds. It's easy to distinguish between the 2 situations by listening for the other car's engine sound. In fact, car sound is your #1 way of knowing how close the other car is when you fight someone, because you can't keep looking at your mirrors all the time obviously. It's just a matter of practice getting used to relying on sound more than usual.

Oh and of course - account for warp! This is not real racing and it's not other sims where online car collision detection methods are superior.

[Phil Thornton]

why do we need a unequivocal rule ? don't we have moderators for that very point ?

No matter how clear the rule is there will always be borderline cases and that is where the moderator's discretion comes in.   Having an ambiguous rule just means there are more borderline cases.

also you should say that the FIA rule "causes confustion" that is your point of view and others might have a different point of view .

Yes it is my opinion, but the more complicated the rule the more likely there will be different interpretations.

I think you should be able to defend as many moves as you like , but weaving should be against the rules . not everything is black and white !

  Doesn't defending many times = weaving??

All I'm trying to do by making the rule unequivocal is to minimise any change of disagreement.  That doesn't mean there won't be debates about borderline situations.  But if we can't agree on a set of idealized hypothetical scenarios how will be possibly agree about real cases?

[Phil Thornton]

I agree, every situation should be judged objectively because you never have the exact same situation twice. The only way to really deal with it by rule is to do what they did in Indycar (whoever watched the recent Edmonton race saw that) - defensive driving and blocking being treated as one and forbidden altogether. It's extremely stupid in my opinion and kills one whole aspect of genuine racing...

To me it's very easy to differentiate between defensive driving and blocking. Defensive driving is taking lines to protect your position better (i.e. inside line before a corner), but not changing your lines once an opponent has a run on you, especially during braking, corner exit or when they're very close to you in general. That would be blocking. All in all, just make it predictable for the opponent behind and not rely them on taking action to avoid you and save both from an accident.

The only unknown here is how close the cars have to be before changing lines would be considered blocking - it's usually the average time of reaction that the driver behind can execute to avoid you without lifting up or braking. In the end it's down to common sense - all should learn from any mistakes they make in regard to that and not repeat it, especially in the same battle or race, and preferably keep it in mind for future races before something bad happens.

Also, one has to take into account blind spots, but apart from the start where you have lots of cars around you, it's fairly simple - if you know you're battling someone and they suddenly disappear off your sight, it's very likely that they're (99%) in your blind spot so you can't just change lines freely knowing that.

The remaining 1% is for when their server connection makes them disappear for a few seconds. It's easy to distinguish between the 2 situations by listening for the other car's engine sound. In fact, car sound is your #1 way of knowing how close the other car is when you fight someone, because you can't keep looking at your mirrors all the time obviously. It's just a matter of practice getting used to relying on sound more than usual.

Oh and of course - account for warp! This is not real racing and it's not other sims where online car collision detection methods are superior.

Wise words H but I think most of what you said is covered in the rules as they stand.  The only significant factor you haven't stated explicitly is how far back a car should be before a move wouldn't be classed as blocking.  In the penalty guidelines we use 5 car lengths.

Incidentally we are not proposing to ban defensive driving.  The proposed rule change wouldn't do that.

[Hristo Itchov]

We're good already then, although 5 car lengths is too static. It really depends on the speed the cars are going at, e.g. 5 car lengths might be too much at low speed and too little at high speed.

Also, I think what JR meant by defending many times is defending many times during a single lap, couple of laps and eventually a whole race.

[Phil Thornton]

We're good already then....

Yes I think the existing rule is fine but when I moderated the Mexico round of the Ams there was some discussion as to whether or not I had come to the correct conclusion.  I had to declare Clive's move as legal under the rules as they stood at the time.  In order to declare Clive's move illegal we would have to change the rules in some way.  One way to do it is to adopt the change highlighted in this poll.

All I am doing in this poll is honouring my commitment to ask the drivers their opinion.  As you know I'm stepping down as Chief Mod so any decision on changing the rules won't be mine it will be up to Tim (Vosblod).  There are other ways the rules could be changed to address the "weaving" issue, my suggestion in this poll is the simplest IMO.  Tim may want to consider a different approach.  I'm more than happy to support Tim in whatever decision he makes. 

[EvilClive]

I think the proposed re-wording of the guidelines opens up the possibility for even more arguments and more possibility of rear end contact at the next corner, as the chasing car will inevitably be arriving at the apex faster than the lead car?

If a "single move" rule is to be implemented, then you will have to define how much lateral movement of the lead car constitutes a "single complete move" so that drivers know exactly what is, and what is not, permitted.
Would it be just a car width?, half the circuit width? or a full side to side of the track? If it was deemed to be a full circuit width, would it be permissable to go to the midpoint and return?
IMHO this is something that cannot be left to a moderator's opinion after the event, as such ambiguity could swamp the mod with "incidents" to rule upon in each race.

As far as I can see the current rule is perfectly adequate and clear. The only decision the moderators have to make under the existing guidelines is the one that Hristo highlighted, that of the gap between the cars, and whether or not the following car is forced to brake or change direction to avoid contact. This is easily checked on the replay.
The current rule also covers BLOCKING...the lead car must move first and not in response to any sideways move by the following car.
It also prevents WEAVING................we all know that the car in front can move across and back only once on any straight section, provided such a move does not cause the following car to brake or swerve to avoid contact.

[vosblod]

I'll honour whichever way the vote goes as regards changing this specific rule.
I'm very much of the 'keep the rules as simple as possible' school, as Clive says ambiguity leads to complex moderating with potential arguments / appeals etc.

Regardless of this vote I think we need to get back to basics and this issue originally arose over the question of drivers attempting to break tow/slipstream from a distance (not blocking or even defensive driving). Do we want a situation whereby drivers habitually try to shake people off?
Personally I think the tow leads to some close racing and weaving in order to break the tow is not a tactic we want to see at UKGPL. I would hope the majority feel the same as fun is what it's all about (oh and winning too  )

However, since the aforementioned incident, there have been no tow-breaking issues of which I am aware. So I would leave whatever we agree in this vote and, rather than create a new rule for this sort of scenario, would say that in the interests of close and safe racing , drivers should not to weave in order to break a tow. Should it happen again, a rule outlawing it will be introduced. Being grown ups I'm confident this won't be needed.

[Turkey Machine]

In terms of this one, I would advocate moving once, and sticking to a line for a corner, and not changing it. Weaving a-la Hristo@Albi seasons ago is definitely not on, by the overtaking driver or the soon-to-be-overtaken driver.

If your line for the corner compromises entry or exit, be aware of your surroundings and adjust the driving accordingly. Too cautious is better than too aggressive, especially if he's not in your field of vision.

[Hristo Itchov]

I really don't see a problem with "weaving" (I would call it moving over) to break a tow given that the car behind is not very close yet. It's not dangerous to anyone and it presents a challenge to the following driver to be focused on how to position themselves in order to take maximum advantage of the tow.

I'm sorry but when I'm driving a BT7 (for instance) and it's a battle for positions against a faster car, especially if it's for the lead and especially if it's the final laps, you won't see me make it easy for the following car by being a sitting duck without trying to break the tow at least somewhat. You can ask Al how that worked in the Watkins Glen race yesterday and there were no issues whatsoever.

The real problem comes once the car behind gets closer and so the car ahead has to play it much safer. As Phil stated there's a rule of 5 car lengths at the moment, but depending on speed there should be some +/- buffer allowed. So it's up to the driver ahead to make proper judgment.

P.S. Jethro, don't mention Albi because I can quickly remind you how you blocked me numerous times and it eventually led to that contact on the exit of the hairpin.  

[EvilClive]

I agree with Hristo's view on this one, but would like to differentiate between :-

a)  defensive driving........... moving over and then back once only on any straight, without causing the following car to brake or swerve, in an attempt to limit the tow available.  Perfectly fair IMHO, as the following car can fully anticipate the move and respond accordingly.

  and

b) weaving........... zig zagging back and forth continuously in response to moves of the car behind to physically prevent the following car from even attempting a pass. Definitely not allowed.

[FullMetalGasket]

So where does the pit lane figure in all this?

[kinghiro]

changing lines twice just to get a better cornerentry if the car behind is holding back isn t weaving in my book. I m not sure what to vote here. ( No offence Phil. I m glad im not a moderator trying to dig up a rule here). weaving back and forth numerous times even if not defending or blocking isn t very gentlemanlike. This is a gentlemansport after all...especially back in those days .

[Rick Nauman]

Sorry to jump in late but...

I had all kinds of specific comments to make on all the many particulars involved in this discussion. Then I had the notion to actually click on the link that Phil provided.

penalty guidelines

All I can say now is that the existing rules about cover very nuance of the topic I can think of.  The key thing is the lead driver can not make any move IN RESPONSE to the trailing driver's moves, but only if the trailing driver is "in a position to overtake".

So I'm going with keep the rule unchanged.

Edit:  Well crap, I guess I missed it!       But happily I was with the majority!