UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Graduates Cup (67) - Watkins Glen (GP) - Jan 9

[BadBlood]

See your point. I can't really comment as I've never been the faster driver

[Ronniepeterson]

“As for patience and waiting, I don't expect that anyone is going to let me through, why would they? So from that point of view, why should I back off instead of be on the attack?”

“In some situations you cannot afford to stick behind a driver for many laps and figure out where he makes mistakes before you make your move. The race is only a limited number of laps and you take up any opportunity that arises.”

“What I mean by "the driver in front must pay the price" is not that he should get penalized, but that if the driver behind can't avoid hitting them, they should accept the consequences of the collision.”

If by previously saying the above you did not imply “I’m coming through, I’m faster, get out of my way or else”, I apologise. But I think even you can see how your statements might be interpreted. If you meant sometimes you are behind a driver who holds you up, who has more straight line speed, faster in the corners, able to brake later, simply driving excellent lines which do not afford you a passing opportunity, whatever. That sometimes you just have to wait for your chance to pass safely and if they don’t make a mistake settle for your current position. Well then we are in complete agreement. If not, we just beg to differ on this topic and should both move on.

[Hristo Itchov]

The point is, you cannot simply wait for a pass to happen. You create your opportunities. Especially if you're in a slower car, you have no other option. If you rely on the driver in front making a mistake while hanging behind applying no pressure, then that's no racing at all.

The proper way to do it is close up, apply pressure, use any opportunity you get and go for it. In the situations we're discussing, I was still at the early stage of closing up and applying pressure, not going for a pass or disregarding the fact that I have a car in front and decided to push it off track. That is never the intention.

Everyone should know the risks of racing (especially online in GPL with the warp issue) and know that if they make a mistake, it may bite them back. It's just the way it is and has nothing to do with what mine, yours or anyone else's intentions really are. The question is do we penalize such outcomes based on flawed logic and limited understanding, or do we simply accept it as part of racing and move on?

[b_1_rd]

based on flawed logic and limited understanding

Meaning?

That to me suggests you think that people here don't know what they are doing with their 'limited understanding'.  I think you'll find that there are some very knowledgeable people involved in the processes and decisions that are made which try to make the racing fair while still being enjoyable for the majority.  You cannot expect a set of rules and regulations that cater for every single event and situation.  Sometimes circumstances work against you and you get unlucky, sometimes life just aint fair, but lets not get into the every single little minute detail of incidents and accidents or all you will end up doing is driving (excuse the pun) people away who are here for light relief, fun (remember that!) and ultimately enjoyment.  If you are that passionate that the rules are based on fatally 'flawed logic' then why race?

Happy to discuss as you rightly have done, and you made your point and initially I thought very well, right up until you got personal, surely time to move on!

[Tom van Ostade]

based on flawed logic and limited understanding

Hi Hristo,

I can't understand why you're saying this as well. The 'Recommended Driver Behaviour' page has been there for over 10 years now, every league uses it and you're now saying it's flawed logic and the people who wrote it or use it have a limited understanding of the sport? So, everyone who runs a GPL League is wrong and you are right? Or did I misunderstand what you are trying to say?

The whole deal here is that when you run into someone from behind, you get penalised. So don't do it. Now thát's racing. When you still think you have to perform miracles in order not to hit someone from behind, you really have to reread the mentioned 'Recommended Driver Behaviour' page again, as it describes in detail how to avoid such incidents. Thát is the norm, thát is the racing.

That is also what I meant with 'learning from it'. You've seen now that such situations as the ones you've been in at The Glen can cost you a penalty, not no mention wrecking another driver's race. The penalty is there so you try to avoid getting into the same situation at Kyalami. If you are unsure how, you should take a look at the 'Recommended Driver Behaviour' page.

Also, it doesn't matter if you are wrong, you don't have to attack people just because they don't agree with you. There have been numerous posts now in which you literally call people arrogant and respectless towards you. There have been no posts in which people curse at you. Of course, some people who wrote in this thread could have been annoyed, but they never cursed at you up until now, yet you cursed back at them. I find this offensive. You should be able to contain yourself just like the rest of us, so we can discuss things in this forum politely. If you disagree we can always take it to the track and fight it out there.

Tom.

[Hristo Itchov]

You've obviously not been following the discussion carefully if you assumed that by "flawed logic and limited understanding" I was aiming at people (or someone in particular) or at the rules as a whole! Why do you force me to repeat myself if you're not going to bother reading it? Anyway, here again, this is what's flawed in its logic and created from limited understanding:

The way total loss of control is interpreted as harder to predict and avoid in case of two cars following each other closely, and the way partial loss of control is supposed to be something which puts the responsibility onto the driver behind and gets him penalized as a result. As I said a few posts earlier, the reality is completely the opposite, and if you care to read up, you'll see why.

I understand very well the need for consistent rules and this always puts limitation, leading to situations which don't fit well within those set of rules. But when was the last time any of our current rules have been thoroughly reviewed like I'm trying to do here and been changed? We're basically using rules which remain unchanged for years. Just because they've worked fairly well for the majority of the incidents so far does not make them absolute.

And I don't see how any of what I see gets personal. Just like someone replies to something I write, I reply back if I disagree and have something to add. If that's what getting personal means, then it's not a bad thing. The idea is not to try and prove to someone you're better, but to prove a point regarding our racing. It's all in good faith to improve future racing, nothing more.

And Tim, I don't blame you for the penalties at all. You judged the situation based on the set of rules and your own observation of the replay, so that's fair enough to me.

[b_1_rd]

You need to have a word with yourself!  You talk to people as if you are better than them.  Not acceptable. 

Just because you are recognised as the fastest driver that regularly competes at UKGPL, it does not give you the right to talk down at someone.  I, and I'm sure Tom and everyone else HAVE read the thread, in detail and interpreted it in the way we decide to, not in the way you obviously feel it should be.

And yes before you come out with it, I do have a problem with you, yes I know you don't care; That, is you're problem.  In your world its all about you!

I will not add any further comment, because clearly you're not interested in anyone else's opinions other than your own. So carry on on your own arrogant course and us mere mortals will sit quietly at the back trying to enjoy what we're doing rather than picking it apart bit by bit.

[BadBlood]

I am not expressing an opinion either way but can I suggest that we just stop posting on this thread down for a while. Nothing positive is being added. The race is long done. Perhaps it would be better to agree to disagree?

[Hristo Itchov]

You need to have a word with yourself!  You talk to people as if you are better than them.  Not acceptable.  

Just because you are recognised as the fastest driver that regularly competes at UKGPL, it does not give you the right to talk down at someone.  I, and I'm sure Tom and everyone else HAVE read the thread, in detail and interpreted it in the way we decide to, not in the way you obviously feel it should be.

And yes before you come out with it, I do have a problem with you, yes I know you don't care; That, is you're problem.  In your world its all about you!

I will not add any further comment, because clearly you're not interested in anyone else's opinions other than your own. So carry on on your own arrogant course and us mere mortals will sit quietly at the back trying to enjoy what we're doing rather than picking it apart bit by bit.

Talk down? Or is it that people feel that way because of their own personal problems. Is it that simply by employing my simracing experience to discuss these issues it leads to some people, when they lose the argument, take a 180 degree turn and start acting as victims, dropping the discussion and trying to make look as the bad guy?

This is exactly what you've just done as well, Steve. I explain to you what I meant and which you obviously misunderstood, and instead of admitting you assumed wrong and try to think on what I actually said, you try to make me look as the one who has a problem.

Where have I said something that claims "I'm better than you"? Find a single point of those I made which I hasn't been backed up, proven or and validated by the hundreds of races I've been in, racing on the limit and fighting for victories. You and everyone else who thinks like you do need to have a word with yourselves, not me. The person who reported me without even being part of those incidents is a bright example. It's all in your heads, so don't blame it on me...

[b_1_rd]

Well,ok I will comment again!

Look this is all getting a bit over the top and unnecessary.

My only personal problem is a very annoying cat who wants fed all the time!  But that's nothing to do with this so I wont go into details.

I think it is quite unnecessary to insinuate that me or anyone else has personal problems, but if that's the way you feel then so be it.

I'm not sure how you make out I've turned anything and become a victim. I have nothing to be a victim of.

Now try reading this and previous posts in a soft nice calm voice rather that the angry oppressive tone that you seem to apply to everything else!  You may then see that most here are just as passionate about the real and simulated racing world as you, but sadly don't have the same mastery in this particular area that you have impressively achieved.

Anyway as Uncle Paul has suggested, I'll agree to have a different point of view, because actually I don't disagree with your principle point; I don't necessarily fully agree with it either but it is an area worthy of review.

Have a nice day!

[Hristo Itchov]

I think it is quite unnecessary to insinuate that me or anyone else has personal problems, but if that's the way you feel then so be it.

If it's unnecessary, why did you start with it in the first place? I'm simply throwing the ball back at you. We were merely discussing something specific when you suddenly had to jump to conclusions about something entirely different - that I need to have a word with myself, that I think I'm better than others and that I talk down to them and how all that's unacceptable to you.

How did you come to those conclusions is beyond me, but to me it certainly speaks of personal problems or some grudge against me, whether you're aware of it or not. But I guess you're going to turn what I just said around as well and say how I'm talking you down again. This is what playing the victim role means, Steve. Your own doing, not mine. I'm not even interested in this, it's completely off topic, but since you brought it up, here you have my answer. Don't go saying it's me who's turning it into a personal thing, because I'm simply reacting to what's thrown at me.

In any case, if you really see the logic in what I spoke in regard to racing and you agree with the principle, then there was no need to say all those other things. If you disagree with what I said, either bring up constructive criticism as I try to do or ignore it.

[Ross Neilson]

I've looked at the replay for this one and it seems simple to me. Hristo caught Rick up quite quickly and could see him struggling to control his car in the corners before the incident occurred. Rather than exercising a little caution he got even closer to Rick in the Loop despite the fact Rick was continuing to slide around, and the inevitable occurred - Hristo hit Rick up the back. As a result 100% of the blame lies with Hristo and the rules were applied correctly by the moderator. End of story - move along folks, nothing to see here.

I've hit people up the back a few times (just ask Evil!) but at least I show some contrition afterwards (in some cases I have reported myself to the moderator). Hristo, if you just said sorry to Rick then I don't think there would have been any need for all of this narky debate afterwards.

However for us mortals it is nice to see that the aliens can get it wrong every now and then 

[Tom van Ostade]

I've looked at the replay for this one and it seems simple to me. Hristo caught Rick up quite quickly and could see him struggling to control his car in the corners before the incident occurred. Rather than exercising a little caution he got even closer to Rick in the Loop despite the fact Rick was continuing to slide around, and the inevitable occurred - Hristo hit Rick up the back. As a result 100% of the blame lies with Hristo and the rules were applied correctly by the moderator. End of story - move along folks, nothing to see here.

I've hit people up the back a few times (just ask Evil!) but at least I show some contrition afterwards (in some cases I have reported myself to the moderator). Hristo, if you just said sorry to Rick then I don't think there would have been any need for all of this narky debate afterwards.

However for us mortals it is nice to see that the aliens can get it wrong every now and then 

I completely agree . Unfortunately Hristo doesn't seem to agree with the rules. I just hope he'll use more caution when racing the next time.

Tom.

[b_1_rd]

Wow! Personal problems, a grudge, victimised and not in control of my mind enough to recognise it! I really must go see my doctor.

Now where did I put those two pencils to stick up my nose.

[vosblod]

Guys I've never closed off a topic before as I don't think it's the way to do things but let's leave it now. Seven pages on one race thread is liable to crash the srou system
I'm not belittling the issues raised which should be discussed but I think we just need to take a step back (and a breather)...