UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Brno (1965-74) - Jan 11

[EvilClive]

Sorry guys for the carnage. But I had to back off suddenly, in that long downhill right hander to avoid contact with another car and as a result went sideways and became a pinball. I forget how many cars clipped me, and how often I hit the barriers, but I thought my race was over.
Miraculously everything was OK when the dust settled and I set off after the rest of them. Sorry that it took Fulvio and Bernie out of the race

[Clutch4]

This was the track i'd been waiting for all season. I love Brno 49 so was happy for this version to be part of the season. As most of my Ams races are boring, solo affairs, i thought at least i could enjoy driving round a real racers circuit.

As it turned out, this race was, (shock horror) entertaining.

I was in the lead (undeserved) on the first start - always helps to be able to see the flag man when the 2 front runners can't!!

2nd start was Ok and i settled into 5th and knew i had the pace to climb higher. Hristo was behind me and after we swapped postions on the long start / finish straight i entered the first village. Unfortunately, (and i've never lost it before here) my rear wheel clipped the curb and i spun out. I don't think i hit Hristo, but i think my spinning car may have distracted him and he crashed out. My car appeared to be in Ok condition, so i continued. Apologies H.

Al Heller was 8 seconds ahead and i suspected i could maybe take a few seconds out of him but a lazy spin by me on entering the last village put him 15+ seconds ahead and i knew i'd have to settle for 4th.

The rest of the race was spent defending against Evil. I tried to be firm but fair by kissing all the apexes at the expense of outright speed.

After Al crashed out on the last lap i was in heaven with a podium, but a cautious entry into the last corner on the last lap allowed Evil to scrape by and the slip stream didn't come to my rescue. Another 100metres and i've have clawed it back, but the cream always rises to the top and he deserved it, though i must admit, the gear stick on my G25 6-shifter hindered me on many a braking & acceleration area by not connecting and leaving me in Neutral with zero traction. Ah well - a bad workman blames his tools.

If i'm honest, i'm gutted, but my Ams races have been so horrendously boring since i joined that it was good to go to a circuit that was enjoyable and to have company for most of it.

 

 

[FullMetalGasket]

Right, results are up. I've manually added the qualifying times and they're all correct just to 2 decimal places rather than 3 as is the usual case.
I messed up fulvios qualifying time so will prod the admin over how to fix that, although he does still have the correct start position


Massive appologies for the Grid mess-up. I didn't notice the numbers in two of the entries in the track ini - pretty much as in the example Phil gave.
Embarrased barely covers it so I hope you can all forgive me, a really simple but stupid mistake 


My own race was a totally unexpected one as again I was expecting to be out horsepowered!
After Goran got a bit untidy in the twisty bits about 2/3rds of the way in on L1 I pulled alongside and he unexpectedly gave me room so I went for it  
I foolishly left him too much room myself and as a result pinballed through the following 5 corners going from grass bank to grass bank before finally regaining the black bit for good!
Goran lost some time backing off for my potential accident and that combined with fighting off Al's attentions gifted my a 6 second lead by the start of the 2nd lap!
This wasn't to remain the case though as once Goran got some breathing room from Al he started to pull me back in, at one point he was down to about 3 seconds behind me - luckily I then put my fastest lap of the race in just as he made a small error so I opened the gap back up to about 6 seconds again.
Where it stayed near-enough for the remainder of the race, as I put in some solid consistent times, and I guess Goran backed off slightly to avoid DNF'ing  
A very hard yet enjoyable race despite the lack of wheel to wheel fighting.

Well done to the finishers and bad luck to Clutch on loosing 3rd at the last minute, must admit I was rooting for you while watching on prib as you'd been battling Clive for ages!  

[bernie]

Not much better here , clobbered evil after he spun then clobbered Fulvio doing a spin turn t get back on track , soz Fulvio 

No Bernie it was all Evil's fault 
I slowdown as much as I could when I saw you spinning, but managed to give a little pat to Evil that GPL enphasized, then I restarted while you were doing burn out and my engine blew 
Cya the next

Even so my re join attempt was a little too impatient , with foresight I should have let you through , but the heat of the moment etc . 

somebody is sure to quote me on "bad re joins"  so I hold my hands up now , but must confess , the state my guts are in would make the worst garters ever   

[EvilClive]

After the false start carnage and my spin on lap 1 of the 2nd attempt which left me about a mile behind the pace, I thought about just going to bed as I was ( and am) developing a nice dose of man-flu....sniff.....sniff.

But after my thrashing by HER after the last race I thought that I ought to make some effort so I set off in lonely pursuit.

Hristo was the next car and although I was not closing on him, I was catching Clutch who was running ahead of H.

Hristo vanished and Clutch made a mistake that brought him within sight and gave me a target. The next 4 or 5 laps were a battle, as I had the speed through the corners but could not match the grunt of Clutch's car on the straights. I probed and looked for an opening but nothing was being given away  So I had to plan my move about a lap in advance.
Passing Clutch anywhere before a straight was a waste of time as he would simply out drag me to the next corner and retake the position. So, my move had to be somewhere around the uphill esses, just before the drop into the village, then I could maybe pull out enough gap to survive those long straights across the S/F line.
It meant that I had to pick up the slipstream as we got onto the S/F straight and stay close all the way to those esses!!! to be close enough to pounce. I was sooooo grateful when he went wide and I could nip through. I had to push as hard as I dared for the rest of the lap and promptly overcooked it on the downhill bit which allowed him to reatke his position.....rats!!! ( or something like that )

The red mist descended at that point and the last 4 laps were total banzai. I had nothing to lose as I was the last car, so I pushed as hard as I could and the gap began to close again. I think Clutch was playing it ultra cautious, and that allowed me to close up.
last lap and just as I got close to Clutch we passed Al stuck in the wall of the esses. Now there was a sniff of a podium place!!! if I could just engineer a pass before the S/F line.
Approaching the final corner Clutch went for the inside defensive line and I went wide, expecting that he would simply outdrag me to the line. I braked late and I think Clutch got either his braking or his acceleration point wrong because he put a couple of wheels onto the dirt and I nipped through on the inside and ABSOLUTELY FLOORED IT!!! 4 speed shifts later and the line was approaching, but so was Clutch   and at one point I thought he was going to wrench his podium place back.
As he said, another 100mtrs and he would have recovered the situation , but I just squeaked over the line to steal 3rd spot.
Great racing Clutch and commiserations to Al who had run a lonely but steady race in a safe 3rd spot only to lose it on the last lap.

Grats to Tim ( who was sandbagging outrageously pre-race!!!) and to Goran who kept him partially honest.

[bernie]

0.04 secs , yup thats close 

[Hristo Itchov]

Didn't have the chance to do many laps yesterday, so had a proper go at the track today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqUYBITrxnA

I must say it's quite fun driving it in the 65s, especially the twisty bits in the middle of the lap - can throw the car around much more than 66s.

[Clutch4]

I have to say Hristo, that onboard lap looks very fast.

Its interesting to see where you gain time over my laps. It looks to me that you brake a lot later than me.

How do you manage to keep the car balanced under braking? Do you heel / toe?

Impressive lap all the same. 

[Hristo Itchov]

I have to say Hristo, that onboard lap looks very fast.

Its interesting to see where you gain time over my laps. It looks to me that you brake a lot later than me.

How do you manage to keep the car balanced under braking? Do you heel / toe?

Impressive lap all the same.  

I don't think I brake later, maybe I just turn-in earlier and let off the brake earlier, so the car carries more speed on entry. I use a lot of throttle under braking, otherwise I can't keep it on the road, and you can also see how I get on and off the brake/throttle before a corner some times, to compensate for any instability or too early braking point. I would be terrible if I had to RFB, but nonetheless I'm willing to learn that if/when I get a 3 pedals set. Would a great challenge for sure!

[Clutch4]

I have to say Hristo, that onboard lap looks very fast.

Its interesting to see where you gain time over my laps. It looks to me that you brake a lot later than me.

How do you manage to keep the car balanced under braking? Do you heel / toe?

Impressive lap all the same.  

I don't think I brake later, maybe I just turn-in earlier and let off the brake earlier, so the car carries more speed on entry. I use a lot of throttle under braking, otherwise I can't keep it on the road, and you can also see how I get on and off the brake/throttle before a corner some times, to compensate for any instability or too early braking point. I would be terrible if I had to RFB, but nonetheless I'm willing to learn that if/when I get a 3 pedals set. Would a great challenge for sure!

Interesting. Alaways good to see how someone else, especially one of the fastest GPL Drivers, gets a car around a track.

Hope you manage that 3 pedal set. I can tell you from personal experience that slowing one of these GPL cars down whilst braking with your right foot, trying to feather the throttle also with your right foot, moving the clutch with your left foot, moving the gear stick down 3 or 4 gears with your right hand whilst holding the wheel steading with your one remaining hand.. all at the same time.. for every corner.. of every lap.. is a difficult, but very rewarding challenge. I love it. 

[Hristo Itchov]

Yeah, I can imagine, the feeling must be much more authentic. I'll probably get frustrated by my lack of control, but hopefully the pleasure would balance that out.

I was driving practically with RFB for many years when I was playing with a joystick, because you can't apply any throttle whatsoever under braking with that, but it's one thing doing it with the hand and quite another with the foot.

[EvilClive]

I have to agree with Clutch.
Everytime I watch a Hristo lap, I am amazed at where he is still able to be fully on the power where I am already way into my braking zone and struggling to keep the car straight and get the speed off for the bend ahead. And then Hristo says that I am braking too late!!!!! and compromising my entry to the corner  lol

On the video of Brno at the end of the long straight, I am braking really hard BEFORE the small footbridge over the road, whereas Hristo is still hard on the gas for another 100 mtrs or more. I can just make that sharp bend if I get my braking right but he sweeps through there without any effort??

I just cannot find the balance between brake and throttle to slow down that quickly H.
You have either passed me, or left me for dead so often in a braking zone, that I am now used to it.

 But, I also happen to think that this alien braking ability of yours might be why you find some newer drivers apparently turning in on you at the apex. A glance in the mirror before the bend tells them that there is no way on earth that the following car can possibly catch them before the next bend and so they concentrate on their braking and choose their line through the corner expecting you to pass on the next straight section.

Only to discover that by some warp of time and space, that the car that was 200 mtrs behind 0.5 secs ago is now alongside them!!!  lol  I know how frightening that can be!

[Hristo Itchov]

It could be that the sound is a bit off the video. In fact, it does seem to me I'm braking later than when I drove the lap as well. Sound always goes out of sync for some reason when capturing laps, especially longer ones like this. It could also be that the replay does not show exactly the way the car behaves while you're actually driving it. In any case, I don't think I gain most of the time by braking late, so you shouldn't pay attention to that. Braking later only gains you a few hundreds at best.

Under racing conditions I've found out others brake later than me, or at least they prolong their braking effort, so maybe i'm just harder on the brakes, I dunno. I avoid stepping too hard on the brakes for 65 and 66 cars though, you lose a lot of feedback from the car when the wheels are close to locking up. Are you changing gears quickly while braking so the revs would go high? This really helps to slow down the car, so called engine braking. If I don't do there's no way I can stop in time for some of those corners using those braking marks.

As for balancing, you can see and hear that I do a lot of dancing with the throttle and brake to find the right amount of grip. It's a bad habit and a really good driver wouldn't do that, but my foot control isn't that great. It usually doesn't work well in other sims and it also doesn't work well in the GT mod, especially with that wheel lock-up "feature".

[FullMetalGasket]

Didn't have the chance to do many laps yesterday, so had a proper go at the track today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqUYBITrxnA

I must say it's quite fun driving it in the 65s, especially the twisty bits in the middle of the lap - can throw the car around much more than 66s.

Tut tut - speed shifting eh? 

I'm confused now. You mostly use the same braking points and lines as I have, only difference being that I won't rev that high in a race and was unwilling to take the section after the town quite so Banzai'ish for 10 laps running.
Your lap should be faster from watching it but it's the fact it's the fact it's by 7 seconds that's astonishing me most! 

I'd recommend you spend more time in the GT mod or Try some of the bigger cars in P&G if you can get hold of it - that'll really help encourage you to brake and setup, coast/drift in, and power out without too much pfaffing with the pedals or wheel 
The 65's are admittedly so twitchy you have to fight tham a bit but I've found myself getting a lot smoother of late thanks to those mods 

[Hristo Itchov]

Well, it's a total hotlap, it was 1 in 10 attempts (crashing or making big mistakes in the other 9), so definitely not something to do in a race, or even in event Qualifying. I just wanted to explore my limits at this track since I enjoy it. My race pace would probably be at least 4:41s or slower, and that on low fuel. And you're totally right about the revs and speed shifting (although I did try to lift up, so it wasn't intentional speed shifting), this would probably blow up the engine within a few laps.

As for going from throttle to brake and back, it's mostly down to lack of practice and knowledge of the track. I had no firm braking points for most of the corners, so I had to go by feeling and that requires adjusting the braking distance and corner entry speed on the fly. You can see I'm much smoother in my Nurburgring WR lap for instance, since I know the track. The habit can definitely be useful, but at the same time it's really holding me back at smoother tracks like Kyalami or Monza where you need to do the transitions in a single motion. That's why I dislike such tracks. For some reason it works OK at Zeltweg though, but there's not much braking involved there.

P&G requires you to have GTL, right?