UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Novices Trophy (65) - Albi (1959-80) - Feb 22

[Artiglietti]

Mod out already, I think this needs to be kicked up.

[karlisss]

some question about Ppoints cos seems i dont understund how it works
1. if i have no PP at all and i do error with my fault i recieve 1 place lost + some PP for the future,right? (how much PP ?)
2. if i have some PP (less than 10), then if i do the same error i will recieve 1 place lost + some places lost(how much places it is? ), cos i allready have a PP in my past. right?
3. if i have more than 10PP then with the same error i will recieve 1place lost+ many places lost by PP, right?
4. what amount excatly it is, for no pp at all, with <5,<10, >10 etc....
5. if i have >10PP and do 2errors or 3, then seems, no point to race at all, cos there will be 3place lost by 3 incidents + 3 x many places lost by PP....
6. if i have 13PP and want to do race without places lost and with small error (what allways happens) i must wait 6month till my PP will expire?
7. otherwise some day i will have 20PP and when will be fighting for P1 during final lap, and will do error, i will be in last place?
can someone explain?
thanks

[vosblod]

There's an example of how yellow cards (penalty points) operate here ; https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/yellow_card_example
You will see from the championship tables they apply separately in each division but can be accumulated for the purposes of racing bans, another example; https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/auto_race_ban_example

For next season, at the start, you will have no points showing next to you in the division tables but they will stay on your driver history until expiry. If there is a continuing accumulation of yellows all current unexpired penalty points can be taken into account when looking at ways to resolve a problem. As I have mentioned before bans are not taken lightly and factors to include are that the Novices are fully moderated, so will naturally incur more penalties, plus a drivers willingness to address any recurring issues.

[Artiglietti]

Karlisss, we already had this discussion, you can still have a look at it in the thread of this season novices' race at Zandvoort.

In my understanding it works like this:

1) A penalty can consist of 1,2 or 3 lost places, depending on what infraction you have committed. You can check them out here https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/penalties ; if you click on the link to 'typical examples' for each kind of infraction, you will find a more detailed description of the penalty plus the number of places you lose for that specific infraction (for example, for the 'side by side contact': https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/side_by_side)

2) PPs are awarded in a simple way: you get 2 for each penalty (regardless of the infraction and the amount of places lost). You get 1 for each warning. No PPs for cautions. You can see this stated here: https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/yellow_card_example

3) Every 2 PPs above 2 you have, a place lost is added to your penalty: if you have 3 PPs, in the case you get a 1 place lost penalty you dont lose any positions for PPs; if you have 4 PPs, and get the same 1place lost penalty, 1 place lost is added to the tally for PPs; 5 penalty points will only add 1 place lost to whatever penalty, but 6 will add 2. This is explained in the link I have added in 2).

4)You are right, once you have piled up many PPs, every tiny wrongdoing is going to result in a massive amount of places lost. Unfortunately the implications of this often become clear only once you went through the process of amassing PPs and the damage has been done. Its a thing to bear in mind for next season.

5) The system is devised in order to promote safe racing and blah blah blah. The point is  though, you dont get penalised if you make proper mistakes, like losing the car, even if you end up collecting people when you spin, unless you were doing something extremely reckless. So, the name of the game is to put your mind to it, clarify what you can and cannot do and avoid risky moves, even if this somewhat limits your side by side racing for a while. I agree that this system can produce a rather 'schematic' racing, where you end up making certain moves to clarify you are driving within the rules, but thats the way the league works and it is not easy to find that fine line anyway.   

[Hristo Itchov]

I don't think the system limits you to how you can conduct your racing against others. It simply prohibits overagressive moves which invade the space other drivers and either ends up in contact, or has them take evasive action to avoid contact.

I've had countless close, side by side racing and there was rarely a problem, as long as everyone sticks to their lines and doesn't make sudden moves and change of direction. You need to make sure that, whatever you do against other drivers, they are aware of your presence around them so they can act accordingly. Of course the responsibility goes both ways, so at the same time drivers should try to be as much aware as possible of what goes around them.

[BadBlood]

Karliss,

The point is that you can drive without getting penalties and still get a result. You have to give way and not get in the way of faster drivers carelessly as it ruins their race. I would have finished ahead of Nigel if I hadn't ceded to Ross as he was coming through but in letting him through I lost too much time and allowed Nigel and Alistair to catch me. My fault, but better than driving to win and then being penalised for ignoring blue flags.

You need to modify your driving so that you develop an awareness of where other cars are or may be. Demonstrate to the Moderator that you are driving in a co-operative manner and trying to learn from mistakes will lead to less penalties since you may find that incidents that you are largely to blame for are treated as racing incidents as the relative skill levels are sometimes a mitigating factor.

Nobody tries to crash but sometimes you need to drive to positively avoid a crash.

[Artiglietti]

Yes, I didnt mean the rules make the racing schematic, I meant that once you have amassed many yellow card points, you may want to make sure not only to be within the rules, but that this is clear to read for the moderator. This should be the norm of course, but when a single warning can net you 5 lost places you may be compelled to give it that bit of additional attention.

Especially if you are driving in the midfield, losing 5 or more places can well put you in the position where you are better off parking it, since you will end last anyway. Unless you want to stay on for the fun of the racing. But you could end up getting a braking point wrong there, and that means...er...penalty points... ? You have to bear in mind that in Novices all collisions are moderated, and you might end up with a penalty even if the guy you hit goes on unscathed and you are the one going on a spin. Whereas in the other divisions, this kind of contact would end up unreported, and in general you have to p..s off the other guy enough for him to be bothered filing a report.

Incidentally, the rule of keeping yourself on your half of the road at all times, which is consistently applied in Novices, does make the racing a bit artificial, compared to racing on real tracks. Same goes for the 'not driving in the middle of the road' rule, or even the 'simple blocking' rule. Especially the defensive manoeuvres are very much limited in online league racing.  I am not saying any of these rules are wrong, I am just stating what I think is a fact of life. I am perfectly aware we already have enough collisions with these rules in place, there is certainly no scope in loosening them.

My 2 pence advise to Karliss would be: when you have someone you are racing around 1) draw a mental line through the road ahead and stick to your half, if you do so, even if a collision occurs, you are usually in the right; 2) pick a line and stick to it on the straights; 3) extra careful when rejoining, even at the cost of losing a position; 4) never, under any circumstances, tap someone from behind, because the rules say thats always your fault.

Now, before anyone says anything, I know I often forget to take advantage of that good advice myself whilst racing, thats why I have a discreet tally of yellow cards myself   . But I am home recovering from a flu today, so I have decided to temporarily take on the position of 'good advice dispenser', just to kill time.
 

[il_lupo_mannaro]

I'm pleased to welcome Fabio to the ranks of Black Night Racing.

I've seen better debuts........ 

Anyway, I'm still contending for the Penalty Points title...

[BadBlood]

Anyway, I'm still contending for the Penalty Points title...

You are in a class of your own in that one Fabio 

[karlisss]

ok, will try to remember that during RACE HEAT .
also before Adelaide some questions:

since Adelaide in my opinoin is very very hard track, and more harder if you want to be fast,
how to stay in one side of track especialy in split1 and split2, where racing line goes from one side to other side during short straights and tight corners... i dont see the meaning of it ,if attacking car is not 3 sec faster per lap.
your opinons?

also "Hakkinen95" corner, entering in in it from right side, means to loose some 1sec per lap + high risk to fly over curbs in Mika stile...
your opinions?

also T1 snake is totaly insane corner.. so how to react if during last corner i dont gain max speed and car behind goes in right me and puts front wheel besides my rear right wheel, how i must react in sportmanship whay? cos car didnt pass me, for taking T1 snake i need outside line, do i must stay at my left side? if so, then i will loose a place, cos i must HARD brake before snake to go through it from left side.also i can cause a car spin.. WHAT TO DO?

also in first section if i go on right side and car besides me in left, but didnt pass me jet, should i must let it pass, cos otherwise i can cause collision from my narrow right turn angle?

in Hakkinen95 corner, if i am in front of car, but during wide corner entering i fly over the curb loosing control in high speed and i am avoiding to brake hard, cos dont want to end up in wall, by this time rear car goes almost beside me. There is a narrow space where if you are lucky after flyght over curbs you can reenter on track (also do this area counts as outside track or inside track, cos curbs going in middle of street... but somewhere i reeded that all aphalt parts of Adelaide are in track) so, i must reenter, but car infront of me, other side (left) is whal... i cant think out at that moment to brake, cos for me in high speed it means SPIN+crash...(actualy i dont know what i will think out at that moment this is example)
What is the CORRECT way to do for me in this situation?

i see the best place in Adelaide where overtake a hairpin at the end of straight. also a place where to let pass in correct way laping cars.

i am just wondering, cose bether to get answers on these questions before race, than explanations after race...

asking all this cos seem only victory for me in this season is penalty point standings....(shame)

[Hristo Itchov]

You should've shown up for the 65 Adelaide practice we just had in BREASTS, Karlisss. You could search and download previous 65 Adelaide races we had in UKGPL and see how it worked out.

Anyway, it's rare that someone would be crazy enough to enter those narrow sections side by side, unless it's a leading car vs. a backmarker. It's possible in the slower bits, but not at the corner you mention. One of the cars should obviously lift up and slot behind the other, and wait for the long straight to make a pass.

You don't really have to make plans for all those possible scenarios. Just do what you feels as the most common sense and avoid hitting other cars or getting into their path once they commit to a line. It comes with experience.

[miner2049er]

Hristo is right, anybody thinking about passing you from the last corner along the straight and into T1 would need to be past by T1 or back out of it, it is not a good place to pass, but if they are lapping you there, then you can help by lifting off the throttle for half a second or so, you can do that in most places. Anybody quick enough to lap you will either do it on their own or just need a little help from you but not too much to ruin your own battle.

The first sector, yes the racing line changes from one side to the other, so if somebody gets alongside you on the right, they should stay on the right and you should stay on the left until one is past the other, then you can go back to the racing line. As you say this is slower than the racing line, but that is the same in real racing. 2 cars battling will be slower than 1 car on its own. That is not a mistake on your part, that is just a fact. You cannot always have the racing line during a race and not every lap in a race will be a fast lap. Like Schumacher used to demonstrate, to win a race you only have to be very fast at the right time.

If you are practising driving off the racing line your lap times will not be as fast as hot laps but it is a skill you need to learn for when you need it.

[Hristo Itchov]

I didn't mean T1, but the fast right-hand kick on top of the hill before the long straight, which I think Karliss meant as well (the one where Hakkinen had his bad accident in '95). But yeah, you're right about T1 as well, it's rather quick in these cars. Basically, the longer the braking distance into a corner, the safer it is to go for a pass there.

[BadBlood]

Don't cut the right hand curb at the second part of T1 - you will, more often than not roll it. If a faster car is following you in that early part of the lap it is difficult to let them past easily without losing bags of time but if you are getting blue flags you have no choice - know where they are and hold a predictable line and maybe lift off. The faster car will be able to get past with their superior control and speed. I agree - this is a hard track but it is easy to overdrive it - you need to be patient. Plenty of room to pass on the last part of the lap but at the early part you will have to listen and live in your mirrors. I am dreading it! (and looking forward to it!)

[Hristo Itchov]

Paul, cutting the second part of T1, the right-hander IS CRUCIAl to a good lap time. Of course, I don't mean riding it with all 4 wheels, but climbing it fairly high nonetheless. Just wait until I post my track guide and you'll see.