Season 21 - Rule Changes

[vosblod]

Wow I can't believe what I thought was a humdrum post to compliment the new season posts turned into this.
Anyway, not being crass, feel free to make this the longest post in srou but you know the new season setup and I think it will be a good one.
I think that is why UKGPL works so well, we evolve and we can change so let's see how the new season goes.

As regards the 50% thing not applying in 67's but applying in Pro/Historics as you know I personally don't go for it and you can argue all the logic you like. The division mods have the choice to run their divisions how they see fit subject to the usual two parameters.
So let's see how it pans out, I'm always willing to change to what works best for the membership.

If you feel you can't fit to the club ethos Hristo I am very sorry to see you go... Deleting your resignation posts won't help you.

[Hristo Itchov]

Deleting what? I never deleted any posts. If they're deleted, someone else must've done it.  

And I'm a bit puzzled with you saying "I can't believe this". What do you expect, Tim, after introducing such a change in this silent secretive manner? Accept it on good faith despite all the flaws I see in it? You obviously have a problem if you think I'm doing all this just for sake of arguing and not for the sake of having better racing and championships!

As for the 50% not being applied to Works, I still don't understand why it was choosen so. It's like it's been done on a whim more than anything. Works division results were playing a big role to convince some of us that we should have such a rule in the first place!

And take a look at Phil's post. UKGPL had, for 20 seasons, a point system which focused on performance. What's more, given the drop in attendance compared to previous seasons, there's actually less incentive to give points up to 18th place, but anyway...

Club ethos you say? How can you still insist on the club mentality when half of your drivers in each division are non-UKers and it's been long since UKGPL has turned into something bigger than club racing.

You know what bothers me the most? You simply can't admit when you did wrong and in this case you did, otherwise you wouldn't have gone with the adjustment in the point system. You simply can't swallow up your ego and humbly say "sorry guys, we should've discussed this". Instead you babble about club racing and how people should quit if they don't like it. Why didn't you tell the same thing to those whose interests you're trying to protect with all those changes in the first place? They joined UKGPL knowing very well how it works, yet now we have some newcommers and beginners insisting the system should change to suit them better, and you happily go along, disregarding seasoned member's opinion. Think about how that looks like from the side...

And what happened to the "please don't quit, people measure up themselves to you on the track". Yeah, sure... can't you people be honest at least for once, ffs, and not try to put on masks just to achieve your petty aims?

@Pod - instead of licking ass like you usually do, try to form up and post your own opinion instead of telling AA what to say. At least he, Syd , and a few others have the brains and the guts to support something which is in favour of fair and competitive racing, and not randomness and mediocrity. Different ideas of racing you may say? That idea of racing is what brought UKGPL to its 20th season and made the league so popular.

[blito]

There is one good point you make there actually Hristo and that is about there not being a need to give points down to 18th place. I don't think there will be many races where we have that many drivers so I will agree with you on that point. I can also see why you disagree with the new points system, I really do see your point of view but I just don't agree with it.
I really think we should give it a go and see if it works.

BTW, In my role as a junior manager I have to undergo a yearly performance appraisal and one of things my manager brought up with me was that as manager I should be more supportive of my staff when they have ideas, even when they are completely stupid ideas. Being over forceful with my own opinion and ideas can, apparantly, dissuade my staff from being creative and I should be prepared to give other things a go even if only to prove they don't work all that well after all!.

[Podkrecony_Ziutek]

@Pod - instead of licking ass like you usually do, try to form up and post your own opinion instead of telling AA what to say. At least he, Syd , and a few others have the brains and the guts to support something which is in favour of fair and competitive racing, and not randomness and mediocrity. Different ideas of racing you may say? That idea of racing is what brought UKGPL to its 20th season and made the league so popular.

Lol, so now Now you start personal attack? That's quite funny

As for Artiglietti, he attempted to devalue the opinion of another driver, by making fun of him. In my opinion, this is rude and it's not the way to conduct discussions.

[Hristo Itchov]

@Pod - instead of licking ass like you usually do, try to form up and post your own opinion instead of telling AA what to say. At least he, Syd , and a few others have the brains and the guts to support something which is in favour of fair and competitive racing, and not randomness and mediocrity. Different ideas of racing you may say? That idea of racing is what brought UKGPL to its 20th season and made the league so popular.

Lol, so now Now you start personal attack? That's quite funny

As for Artiglietti, he attempted to devalue the opinion of another driver, by making fun of him. In my opinion, this is rude and it's not the way to conduct discussions.

You're the one who's notorious for making personal attacks with most of your posts. You like telling people how to act or what to say. And you're correct, AA was addressing another driver, so how does that involve you exactly?. What gives you the right to tell him what to say? If you don't like it, ignore it.

[Artiglietti]

There was not rudeness implied in that little banter, unless your sensitive soul feels insulted being reminded that if you are the one running at the back of the lower division in  the league and the one in need to try and tweak the rules to prevent the quicker guy beating you so consistently, then maybe you shouldnt go on putting yours and his approach to racing on the same level. If you do, the risk is you are going to sound silly, and someone may well spot it. I think I pointed that silliness out quite kindly, to be honest.

I am still to read any comment from you on this forum that actually states some kind of articulate opinion about something. I mean articulate, not simply 'the moderators are right because they organise the game', or 'I disagree with Hristo'. So maybe you have a thing or two to learn about how to conduct a discussion, before you go around teaching others. The same way Al has something to learn about racing online, before addressing people on how to go about competing on here.

The obvious problem here is that there are 2 lines of thought in the league, which I suspect are quite telling of the true colors of the people involved.
Someone wants this to be pure competition, and therefore wants  to try to excel through improvement of his performance. If they prove not to be good enough, they will settle for alternative targets without complaints.
But there is also someone who thinks this is not actual racing, it has to fit in with a life full of much more serious commitments and therefore the league should cater for those who refuse/cant put in much practice, are not very competitive, and supposedly are the majority. I still think it would be quicker and more rewarding to spend time playing the game and improving at it, instead of thinking at shortcuts through new rules. However, I also think to a certain extent there is an acceptable compromise that can be found. The risk is that in doing this the philosophy of the league changes from 'handicapping quicker drivers' in order to keep the gaps within a reasonable range, to tweaking/using the rules until you effectively manage to randomly (at best) change the faces at the top of the score tables. It is a fine line, and I think the first point system proposed crossed it big time. I also think the 'club mentality', hinted at by Mike and which I spotted a while ago, may well provide a nice cover up when that line is crossed.

Now, the fact that there was an attempt to push that point system through prevaricating any dissense, to the point of inviting people who dont agree to leave, just shows how much the philosophy of the league  is drifting toward this very flawed and weak approach. And this is why this thread is becoming so long, Tim.

 

[Phil Thornton]

Hristo

I think this thread has got a little too personal and we all need to step back a bit.  These days I limit myself to advising on the historical context of any decisions, I'm more than happy to sit back and let Vos and the rest of the moderating team get on with the task of running UKGPL and they are doing a fantastic job.  The reason for my last post was simply to point out what points systems had been used in the past and really to highlight just how little things have changed, particularly for the top 5 places that you are so passionate about.  Frankly I am at a loss to understand why there seems to be such a lot of animosity over the changes for Season 21.

The moderating team has always changed the rules slightly for each season and the main changes are always published in the Season overview (accessible via the "Series" table on the SRou main page for UKGPL).  Believe me everything is open and honest on the mods forum if there was anything in the new proposals that was expected to be controversial then serious consideration would have been given to setting up a poll to gauge driver opinion.

I appreciate you consider UKGPL is more than a "club" but in terms of organisation and funding that is exactly what it is.  The mods put in a lot of their own time and money (not just in server fund contributions but in some cases also in other ways like providing ftp sites etc) for no other reward than the pleasure of driving with other GPL enthusiasts.  This pleasure is severely undermined by constant criticism (however well intended) and in some cases personal attacks.

Please can we all calm down a bit, it is too easy to post something on the forums in the heat of the moment and regret it later.

Regards

Phil

[Hristo Itchov]

I couldn't have said it better, AA. And if after reading your post some people still fail to see the point, then we should give up.

Phil, if you go back to the beginning of this discussion, you'll see that those of us who spotted flaws in the new system have brought up many arguments to support our case, and it was not done in the heat of moment or out of having a grudge against somebody. What did we receive in return though? Answers in the likes of "it's already been decided", "this is not a place to discuss this", "you're wrong" and so on, as well as defensive reactions like we were trying to insult someone. Is that how it should be done? Is that the way to treat someone's opinion which is based on lots of experience of running both at the back and at the front, and on interest of keeping the league's philosophy go in the same direction as it has been going for all those years. The philosophy which attracted us to the league in the first place. I think it's fairly normal to say that, if this philosophy changes to the extent that the newly proposed (no, decided) point system threatened to do, one would lose interest and simply be forced to leave.

Now, I'm not sure what Tim implied with his "Deleting your resignation posts won't help you.", but I said I'll quit if that point system didn't change. It did though, although not returning to its previous form, so I see no reason to even bring up the point. If by "won't help" he means something entirely different, then should I feel threatened? I guess time will tell. My focus will be on racing and reducing as much interaction as possible with some people who have shown their true faces in this thread.

I appreciate your attempt to calm down things, Phil, and I never intended for this to go so far either, but some statements brought up problems which were otherwise well covered up, and I felt responsible to counteract. I'm now looking forward to next season and am actually glad for this discussion, for it revelead many things, the knowledge of which would be of help for the future of the league and my participation in it.

[happyal]

The same way Al has something to learn about racing online, before addressing people on how to go  

I don't see why my view isn't as important as any other members here, just because I am slower.

As for the rest of your post, I fail to get your point.

At this point I would like to start thinking about racing next season, so I won't say anything else unless I am addressed directly. I just want to say that I'm happy with the rules, I'm happy that we now get points down to 19th. The shift & r rules makes it easier and best of all the track choice this year is the best I've seen since I started online racing.

Thanks guys for doing such a great job, I am looking forward to next season.

[happyal]

There was not rudeness implied in that little banter, unless your sensitive soul feels insulted being reminded that if you are the one running at the back of the lower division in  the league and the one in need to try and tweak the rules to prevent the quicker guy beating you so consistently, then maybe you shouldnt go on putting yours and his approach to racing on the same level. If you do, the risk is you are going to sound silly, and someone may well spot it. I think I pointed that silliness out quite kindly, to be honest.
 

The quote, "drive slow enough to win" comes from Michael Schumacher, you might of heard of him as the most successful F1 driver of all time.

[Hristo Itchov]

There was not rudeness implied in that little banter, unless your sensitive soul feels insulted being reminded that if you are the one running at the back of the lower division in  the league and the one in need to try and tweak the rules to prevent the quicker guy beating you so consistently, then maybe you shouldnt go on putting yours and his approach to racing on the same level. If you do, the risk is you are going to sound silly, and someone may well spot it. I think I pointed that silliness out quite kindly, to be honest.
 

The quote, "drive slow enough to win" comes from Michael Schumacher, you might of heard of him as the most successful F1 driver of all time.

Apparently you have a wrong idea what Schumacher means by that. It means to not push more than necessary while you're in the lead of a race, i.e. not push to open up a gap more than you need. It has nothing to do with driving slow and winning championships that way.

And it's a shame you don't get mine or AA's point of view, it just shows that your problem is not being slow, but your lack of experience of battling for victory and top spots, and all the implications that come with it. You only care about running your own race at the back. Fine by me, but don't pretend you actually understand what we're arguing about, because it's obvious you don't.

Again, it has nothing to do with being slow or not. If I may mention Bernie as an example, he might not be the fastest driver around, but he knows too damn well what all this means, because he has experience of running both at the back and at the front. Just like myself or AA. Or Syd. Anyway, I guess I shouldn't expect you or Paul to understand, at least not at this moment in time.

[Ronniepeterson]

Apparently you have a wrong idea what Schumacher means by that.

your problem is not being slow, but your lack of experience of battling for victory and top spots, and all the implications that come with it.

don't pretend you actually understand what we're arguing about, because it's obvious you don't.

because he has experience of running both at the back and at the front. Just like myself or AA. Or Syd.

Anyway, I guess I shouldn't expect you or Paul to understand, at least not at this moment in time.

Yeah Al, Paul and anyone else not good enough to run at the front get in line and stop arguing with these mighty seasoned drivers. Remember we are not worthy.

[Syd Drake]

I just noticed how status under my name changed from Former UKGPL moderator to just full member. Interesting.

[Hristo Itchov]

I just noticed how status under my name changed from Former UKGPL moderator to just full member. Interesting.

 

[vosblod]

I just noticed how status under my name changed from Former UKGPL moderator to just full member. Interesting.

Apologies Syd, I had noticed it was reading as current moderator which was an anomally so changed it. Now fixed the former bit.