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  • S21Pro Salzburgring: July 12, 2011
July 12, 2011, 09:44:01 PM +0100 - Salzburgring - UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Pro (65)
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
natan5
 
BRM P261 (1965) F1 1965 3 +0.601
117.198mph
1 (+1) 50:28.302
115.765mph
37 1:20.564
117.607mph
Dunlop  
jhalli
 
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 11 +2.681
114.258mph
2 +35.231
114.433mph
37 1:20.540
117.642mph
Dunlop  
FullMetalGasket
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT7 (Climax) F1 1965 8 +1.348
116.125mph
3 +1L
111.746mph
36 1:21.912
115.671mph
Dunlop  
Ronniepeterson
 Clark-Hill Racing
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 4 +0.938
116.711mph
4 +31.598
110.601mph
36 1:21.736
115.920mph
Dunlop  
Hristo Itchov
 HikiWazaRacing
Brabham BT7 (Climax) F1 1965 2 +0.460
117.403mph
5 +1:01.593
109.535mph
36 1:21.093
116.839mph
Dunlop  
fpolicardi
 Team7
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 12 +8.785
106.424mph
6 +2L
110.795mph
35 1:22.903
114.289mph
Goodyear  
EvilClive
 HikiWazaRacing
Cooper T77 (Climax) F1 1965 7 +1.237
116.283mph
7 +8L
114.005mph
29 1:21.590
116.128mph
Disco
Dunlop  
G Jonsson
 Black Night Racing
Honda RA272 F1 1965 5 +1.013
116.604mph
8 +12L
113.930mph
25 1:21.685
115.993mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Geoff65
 Clark-Hill Racing
BRM P261 (1965) F1 1965 10 +2.168
114.969mph
9 +24L
109.653mph
13 1:23.007
114.145mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Raoni Frizzo
 Team Coyote
Honda RA272 F1 1965 1 1:20.244
118.076mph
10 +30L
114.682mph
7 1:20.637
117.500mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Clutch4
 Mountside Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 6 +1.028
116.582mph
11 +37L
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Goodyear  
Ross Neilson
 Clark-Hill Racing
BRM P261 (1965) F1 1965 9 +1.569
115.811mph
12
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Dunlop  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
Ferrari 512 F1 1965 13 13 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

Salzburgring turned out to be an action packed race - not however in quite the way we normally prefer as will soon become clear...


Server replay time: 0h00m10s

Tim (FMG) gets a flying start and spies a gap between the cars of Evilclive and Clutch.
If he had pulled it off then pat on the back time but unfortunately he didn't.
Ignoring the reference to cutting back in this seems the most appropriate;
"Simple Side by Side contact: Penalty 1 Place + 1 for lap one
On a straight, the overtaking car moves out to overtake but cuts back in too early. There was some loss of control. Penalty for overtaking driver."
Due to the element of warp contact from Clives car this is reduced to a warning, however the blame must lie at Tim's door.


Server replay time: 0h19m45s

Hristo got a run on Natan through Fahreriagerkurve and found himself alongside Natan while approaching Schikane. In the first left hand section all is well as each driver stays on their respective halves of the track - however this doesn't remain the case.
Exiting the left hander Hristo makes a minor mistake which compromises his line slightly while at the same time Natan turns in towards the apex as though Hristo isn't there.
This naturally results in contact, ordinarily this would be a straight penalty to Natan as he turned in on an opponant. However in this case Hristo's compromised line ment that despite his best efforts he ran wide exiting the left hander - had Natan not already been thrown from the track after driving into the outside of Hristo's car then contact would still have almost certainly followed anyway.
As a result I am downgrading this incident to a racing incident.


Server replay time: 0h42m38s

Due to our two leaders having just passed a backmarker, H was closing fast on Natan who appeared to be hanging out wide entering Fahrerlagerkurve, as Natan hadn't moved to defend his line and appeared to be staying wide Hristo took the bait and continued on to take the inside line.
However Natan suddenly turns in from the outside of the corner and Hristo makes contact.

This incident could be construed as a rear end by Hristo, however in this case Natan has turned in suddenly and aimed for a much earlier apex than he uses on any other lap - this can only be construed as a move in reaction to Hristo's position and an attempt to belatedly cover his line.
Given these circumstances Natan must take the penalty for his move.

In a situation like this if you intend to move to close the door to an opponent you must do so clearly and before they have totally commited to a passing attempt of their own.
Moving to cover (normally this would involve taking the inside line) is a perfectly acceptable and normal form of racecraft, it is also a safe one as your opponent will always be aware of your intentions - changing line at the last moment however is not, as your opponent will often have no warning or time to react.


Server replay time: 0h47m23s

Following on from the previous incident Hristo has been continuing around the circuit on 3 wheels in an attempt to finish.
We have no rules against this sort of action, indeed it has occured numerous times across the various series and some drivers have even managed to finish under their own power on only 2!
However when limping to the finish in this manner the driver must accept they are in no position to race their opponents as they are no longer in full control of their car - and must make every effort to stay well out of the way of 'healthy' competitors.

In this incident Hristo is entering Semperit Kurve while Natan is flying up from behind in his undamaged BRM.
Natan is approaching at speed and quite possibly does not realise how slow Hristo is travelling as he is setting up to pass around the outside entering the turn.
However as he gets closer it becomes clear the gap will not form before he gets there and Natan atttempts to brake and avoid Hristo's car. He does not succeed in this attempt however and makes contact with the rear of Hristo's BT7.

Marginal Rear End Shunt: Warning
"The victim had totally lost control before contact and consequently his line was unpredicable. The shunter was in full control."

As Natan was visible in his mirrors Hristo should have tried to position himself further from the inside of the corner before Natan arrived on the scene, however it is worth noting that the approach to Semperit Kurve makes this more difficult than normal to achieve, as drivers enter it from a shallow left-hander meaning that a slower car will actually have to sit on the racing line on the approach to the corner.
This is something that Natan should have taken into account as Hristo was almost certainly going to stay to the outside entering the corner.

SimRacing.org.uk Lap Records
Grand Prix Legends
F1 1965
1:20.244
118.076mph
Raoni Frizzo
Qualifying
Honda RA272July 12, 2011, 09:44:01 PM +0100
S21Pro
Grand Prix Legends
F1 1965
1:20.540
117.642mph
jhalli
Race
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965)July 12, 2011, 09:44:01 PM +0100
S21Pro
Pages: [1]
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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Pro (65) - Salzburgring - Jul 12  (Read 3897 times)
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FullMetalGasket
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« on: July 07, 2011, 02:30:06 PM +0100 »

UKGPL Season 21, 65 Professionals Trophy
Race 6: Salzburgring

Welcome to round 6 at the Salzburgring.
Make sure you're aware that this is the 1976 version with the chicanes, not the '74 version!

Race List = IGOR
Server = UKGPL_T7_2
IP address = 62.149.202.168
Race date = 12/07/2011
Time = 21:00 UK time
Track = Salzburgring '76
Variant = 65F1
Damage Model = Pro
Qualifying time = 35 minutes
Race length = 50 minutes ( 37 laps)
Password: see above

65 Patch: The 2.02 Release of the 65mod can and should be used and can be found here (currently down - also available here )

Driver lists can be found on the Pro championship standings page
The track can be downloaded from : Dixierunners
Add-on’s available at : SRMZ or here (better IMO)

Please be in IGOR UKGPL chatroom by 8:50 pm UK Time

Reserve drivers should not join the server(s) until there are only 30 minutes of qualifying left. Please restrict chat to pit messages. Moderating will be by reported incidents only, however the moderators reserve the right to review any incident with a particular emphasis on lap one. The aim is to review the race the following weekend so incident reports should be submitted within five days of the race (ie the following Friday). We're hopeful most incidents can be resolved amicably and recommend a days deep breath with a replay review before posting. A sorry in the forum won't be taken as an automatic admission of guilt by the moderators.
The race will be run on PRO Damage.

NOTE: Please ensure you join the correct server, due to the way we import if you start the race on the wrong server your result will not count.

Reserve drivers should not join the server until there are only 30 minutes of qualifying left so as to give the FULL TIME drivers chance to join, and drivers are not to go out on track until there are 30 minutes of qualifying left as this helps all drivers join the server successfully.

Please restrict chat to pit messages if necessary, and this includes the end of the race, until all running drivers have completed the necessary laps.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 02:37:12 PM +0100 by FullMetalGasket » Logged

AKA, T Muttram/65/66/69

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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 09:54:59 PM +0100 »

Qualified a solid 6th with more in hand.

Off the line, Tim and Evil touched with one of them then sliding into me removing my front wheel. 5 seconds and it was all over.

Needed a solid result here to stay in the Championship mix from my current 2nd place but i suspect thats my one shot at a Pro title over with as i can't see this season's combination of luck i've been dealt allowing me to compete with the fast guys being repeated.

Anyway, no hard feelings and a racing incident that we all get involved in now and again, but i thought the characteristic of the Pro season thus far was us all keeping it cautious on the first lap not losing it on the grid? Anyway , from the replay it looked like Tim made an incredible start so can't blame him for staying on it.

No hard feelings chaps. Back to the Mountside Motorhome.  Wink   Sad
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Ross Neilson
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 09:57:26 PM +0100 »

Same here Clutch! No way to avoid the accident in front of me. Shame as I liked the track and I was hoping to get another finish in.
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FullMetalGasket
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 10:52:35 PM +0100 »

I havn't had a chance at checking the server version of the replay but there was no contact in my client one, so that was a damn odd event!
Very sorry to the pair of you though as it ended things rather prematurly  Sad

Will probably look after work tomorrow as I'm up at 5 in the morning!  Shocked

Server replay is in process of uploading - should be up in 10 mins or so
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AKA, T Muttram/65/66/69

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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 10:56:40 PM +0100 »

What a pity...my car was really fast at this track. Got the pole and was chasing Natan and Hristo for the lead. But when I was very close from them I had a blown engine Sad

But, that's racing. Here we go now to Bikernieki. A new track that can provide a very nice race! Smiley
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 11:46:35 AM +0100 »

I waited until now before writing a report, to provide myself with enough time for all negative emotions to go away, but the memories remain vivid enough and things are not forgotten. Especially after seeing the server replay now and the patterns of one particular driver's bad driving that emerge just from watching the race on fast forward from my own cockpit camera.

Before that though, a few words about Qualifying. I had just received my new wheel (Logitech Driving Force Pro) on the same day and did some practice before the event to get some feeling for the FF and adjust it properly as much as possible. It was quite promising and I could do some good lap times, so in Qualifying I managed some very good runs, partially helped with some distant slipstream which positioned me 2nd, but long way away from Raoni in his Honda.

I admire Raoni for being so fast with keyboard, but no matter how good you are, driving with keyboard is never optimal, so to be half a second quicker despite that it can only mean his assigned car is too fast for his level of ability. Nothing personal against him of course, but it kills the purpose of handicapping. I hope we'll have a mid-season review discussion again this season so I can post a more detailed opinion.

Onto the race then and as expected, Raoni lost ground on the start (shorter 1st, Raoni!!) and Vix... not, his BRM, was able to get him in front of me as we entered T1. For the next 10 laps I had to be very patient, as Vix would mess up the line in just about every single corner, but then motor away with the aid of the superior power of his car. This meant that despite closing in on him in corners, I had to even ease off on occasions because he was so slow in some of them, but then even when I had a good exit and tucked in behind his slipstream, it was not enough to compensate for the BT7 lack of drive.

In the mean time Raoni was recovering slowly and just when he was about to enter the battle and expand it to a 3-way fight, his engine gave up on him. Tough luck, Raoni, I would've definitely preferred to fight you than Vix (and for good reason, as you'll hear out next).

The first noticeable example of Vix'es bad racing manners was when he had a bad exit off the last corner and so I was ahead for a few meters, before his engine put him back in front, but only just. I used the slipstream as best as possible and was close enough to try brake later as we approached the first slow right-hander. As we went through the flat out T1, I kept the inside and Vix reacted by moving to the right to protect, which was fine, and so I switched to the left to take the outside line for the next corner. Vix reacted immediately though by changing his direction again and blocking my path, forcing me to brake some 20 meters earlier to avoid any contact.

4 laps later I was close enough again, this time on the approach to the slow long right near the end of the lap, and Vix weaves around again to try and prevent me from making an attack, but he goes wide and so I manage to exit the corner quicker and reach the chicane side by side with him. We make the first part without problems, but then Vix decides enough is enough and simply turns into the next apex, hitting my car and getting himself sent off to the side as a result.

I continued unscathed after this and with Vix some 3 seconds behind, without the benefit of slipstream, I drove some of my best laps, overcoming the lack of habits with the new wheel and keeping the gap within 2-3 seconds for about 10 laps. Eventually though, once he grabbed a tiny bit of slipstream, Vix managed to close in on me within 3-4 laps and then pass me easily on the straight. There was no point defending and besides, I don't block like he does.

A lap or so later, I managed to close in again on him and when he took the inside line for the slow right near the end of the lap, I went for the outside. What a "surprise" though, when he suddenly straightened up his line and goes into my path, with inevitable contact. My BT7 veered into the armco, but managed to continue without any noticeable damage. As he didn't go so well through the chicane again, I was instantly back on the attack and exactly a lap later, approaching the same corner which we had just made contact, it was just about to get even worse.

As we went around a backmarker, Vix kept a wide line towards the slow right and I was close enough to launch an attack on the inside, which I did. As soon as that happened, Vix turned to the right and into my path, and contact was inevitable no matter what I tried. This one ripped my front left wheel off while Vix continued unharmed.

I knew there were not a lot of runners left in the race and that some were a couple of laps down, so I continued on 3 wheels to try and grab some points. I tried to stay out of the path of incoming cars as best as possible, so sorry if that was a problem to someone, but I wasn't going to give up after driving my ass off in a race that never favoured me and after being taken out by someone who clearly has no respect or morale in racing. The same one who rearended my slowly moving car, despite seeing it well in time and having enough time to react better.

Anyway, I salvaged 5th, but I was so furious after what happened and especially by Vix'es response who had the nerve to call me a looser, so I decided not to speak for a while to avoid saying much harsher things.

I'm going to say this though - why do I have to race someone who is clearly an inferior driver and if it's not for his machine, he would be driving down in mid-field. Why should the fastest drivers in this division, namely Tim and Evil, be so overly-handicapped that I can't race them any more? I thought the handicapping was supposed to equalize the field, not kill the chances of those who deserve to be at the front? And also, why are drivers who are clearly very talanted and fast, being given a quicker car?

This division is upside-down on its head at the moment and the racing is highly unnatural. I have to drive like a robot and not make any mistakes, and even then I have no chance to beat people who are clearly not driving any near as good, and who only benefit from having a much faster car, particularly on tracks that favour engine power. I think the fact that this is going to be another Amateurs/Pro season which I'm not going to win proves all that, because we can see in Specs when we race the same 65 cars who are currently the fastest drivers and yet those same drivers are robbed of chances in the Pro division. If you want more proof - take the Qualifying times from each race so far and observe.

I'm very tired and disheartened of having to deal with all this, and listening to people saying that it's the right thing to do, because it's not. We should really switch to the Historic system or something, and be done with this perversion once and for all. OK, I guess I may not have to wait for a mid-season review after all, lol, at least for the Pro division.  Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2011, 03:44:24 PM +0100 »


I'm going to say this though - why do I have to race someone who is clearly an inferior driver and if it's not for his machine, he would be driving down in mid-field. Why should the fastest drivers in this division, namely Tim and Evil, be so overly-handicapped that I can't race them any more? I thought the handicapping was supposed to equalize the field, not kill the chances of those who deserve to be at the front? And also, why are drivers who are clearly very talanted and fast, being given a quicker car?

This division is upside-down on its head at the moment and the racing is highly unnatural. I have to drive like a robot and not make any mistakes, and even then I have no chance to beat people who are clearly not driving any near as good, and who only benefit from having a much faster car, particularly on tracks that favour engine power.


This was my feeling after my first race in a Cooper at Monza:


In this race I had to learn how vulnerable you become with such an inferior car.


Greetings
chef

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FullMetalGasket
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2011, 05:06:01 PM +0100 »

I'll comment on the handicapping system here, but for obvious reasons will leave the rest until I catch up enough at modding to do it properly  Smiley

Last Season was my first as a mod so I decided that as Am's were the highest series in the 65 cars I would use harder and more interesting tracks - this seemed to go down well as I had good feedback over my selection from right through the field - as an example Phil choose the Am's over the Novices purely based on my slightly odd track choice.

However it became clear by the end of the season that the tracks I'd chosen favoured the faster drivers (you, Evil, and I) over everyone else by too much of a margin - the only person to score a win other than you and I was Tom (Hiro) in his BRM at Kya and Monza.
I didn't want a repeat of this because A. It reflects badly on me - as someone restricted to the slowest chassis yet with the ability to pick the tracks - and B. it wasn't a close championship because the faster tracks were so technical (Brno for example) that midfield and back drivers couldn't maintain a competitive pace against the 'leaders'

This season I purposely chose a bunch of faster tracks and went with the plan of mostly choosing easy-to-learn circuits to give everyone a chance - and we've had some fantastic races as a result (What most of us are here for after all).
The only real problem I see is that the new scoring system was introduced after I'd decided on my season and has potentially warped the current standings - but at the moment I'm currently leading the series in an underpowered milkfloat still so it seems to be working.
That said I do believe I've swung too far towards power tracks this season.

Regards the chassis assignments though - even running a Historics style system you'd still be spending most of the season (OK not this one I agree) in a BT7 or Cooper - as would I, and Evil for that matter and all 3 of us have prooved we're quite capable of filling the podium in these cars so really what can we expect it to do aside from give us a grid full of lotus' from row 4 back every race? Grin
Next season I'll hopefully hit the balance I'm after and give us all a good level, challenging playing field. If it's still proving odd after that then I'll try a season using the historics system. Smiley

As for Raoni we have discused his pace in the Mod-Pod and are well aware of it - for the moment at least we've chosen to let him keep hold of the waza-turbine although we do have the keys handy to a nice rusty characterfull T77 for when it's needed  Smiley


Honestly we do consider these things even if we arn't making noises about it all the time, I'm only human(ish) though  ninja
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AKA, T Muttram/65/66/69

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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2011, 09:21:29 PM +0100 »

Last Season was my first as a mod so I decided that as Am's were the highest series in the 65 cars I would use harder and more interesting tracks - this seemed to go down well as I had good feedback over my selection from right through the field - as an example Phil choose the Am's over the Novices purely based on my slightly odd track choice.

I think all of us who race in this division are happy for trying out different and interesting tracks, as long as there are no screen freezes.

However it became clear by the end of the season that the tracks I'd chosen favoured the faster drivers (you, Evil, and I) over everyone else by too much of a margin - the only person to score a win other than you and I was Tom (Hiro) in his BRM at Kya and Monza.
I didn't want a repeat of this because A. It reflects badly on me - as someone restricted to the slowest chassis yet with the ability to pick the tracks - and B. it wasn't a close championship because the faster tracks were so technical (Brno for example) that midfield and back drivers couldn't maintain a competitive pace against the 'leaders'

Is that a bad thing? If the 3-4 of us were the best drivers, it's not unnatural that we win all races, is it? Asking that more drivers win races, even when they're clearly not deserving and doing it by providing them with a more powerful car while handicapping the rest even more (by cars and tracks) is very unreasonable IMO. It creates a lot of unrealistic results and friction during the races, and it leads to more accidents.

This season I purposely chose a bunch of faster tracks and went with the plan of mostly choosing easy-to-learn circuits to give everyone a chance - and we've had some fantastic races as a result (What most of us are here for after all).
The only real problem I see is that the new scoring system was introduced after I'd decided on my season and has potentially warped the current standings - but at the moment I'm currently leading the series in an underpowered milkfloat still so it seems to be working.
That said I do believe I've swung too far towards power tracks this season.

I don't think you should pay that much attention to the championship standings because they do not reflect what actually happens on the track and the reasons behind those results. If you take actual lap times, incidents and accidents into account, it's quite a different picture. If I was going by championship standings alone, it would mean I have to hope that in each race I have luck on my side and those who have better equipment are going to make a mistake or suffer a failure or something, despite driving better than them. I don't like this luck-based racing at all.

Regards the chassis assignments though - even running a Historics style system you'd still be spending most of the season (OK not this one I agree) in a BT7 or Cooper - as would I, and Evil for that matter and all 3 of us have prooved we're quite capable of filling the podium in these cars so really what can we expect it to do aside from give us a grid full of lotus' from row 4 back every race? Grin
Next season I'll hopefully hit the balance I'm after and give us all a good level, challenging playing field. If it's still proving odd after that then I'll try a season using the historics system. Smiley

Yes, so again, what is the problem with that? If we're faster, isn't it OK to be in front regularly? I don't see why we should create artificial racing where slower or disrespectful drivers are given the chance to take positions they do not deserve, against competitors who do. Is this racing or a charity for podiums... There has to be some balance and I don't see anyone complaining about it in Historics. In fact, I'm not alone in thinking that system there works well and should be used in here as well. It still keeps the championship close and it allows drivers to drive different cars throughout the season, and it doesn't give unfair advantages to anyone over the course of a season.

Looking forward to mid-season reviews.
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 11:51:29 PM +0100 »

Looking forward to mid-season reviews.
Now you mention it; http://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9666.0
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 09:22:35 PM +0100 »

You mean to write moderator report published, Tim? Had to scroll 3 pages back to find the thread.  Cheesy
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FullMetalGasket
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« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 09:29:24 PM +0100 »

It's been a long day :p
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AKA, T Muttram/65/66/69

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