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  • S21PSC Mexico City: July 29, 2011
July 29, 2011, 09:52:21 PM +0100 - Mexico City (1962-1979) - UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Porsche
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Hristo Itchov
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 2 +0.164
102.336mph
1 (+4) 49:50.116
100.976mph
27 1:48.821
102.761mph
Dunlop  
clouds
 SuperCup GPFun
Porsche 910 GT 1967 1 1:49.109
102.490mph
2 (+2) +0.753
100.950mph
27 1:49.256
102.352mph
Dunlop  
jhalli
 SuperCup Porsche International
Porsche 910 GT 1967 4 +1.572
101.034mph
3 (+2) +1:39.807
97.714mph
27 1:50.390
101.300mph
Dunlop  
Ronniepeterson
 SuperCup Porsche International
Porsche 910 GT 1967 7 +3.158
99.607mph
4 +1:55.315
97.226mph
27 1:53.329
98.673mph
Dunlop  
Arf Arf Arf
 SuperCup LOL'Team 2
Porsche 910 GT 1967 5 +2.146
100.513mph
5 +1L
97.109mph
26 1:52.479
99.419mph
Dunlop  
Rainier
 SuperCup LOL'Team 2
Porsche 910 GT 1967 10 +5.081
97.929mph
6 +14.270
96.648mph
26 1:53.630
98.412mph
Dunlop  
Cookie
 SuperCup Porsche International
Porsche 910 GT 1967 9 +3.718
99.112mph
7 +25.099
96.302mph
26 1:53.457
98.562mph
Dunlop  
Phil Thornton
 SuperCup Pastit Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 14 +6.797
96.480mph
8 +1:36.545
94.075mph
26 1:55.935
96.455mph
Dunlop  
JonnyO
 SuperCup Team Coyote
Porsche 910 GT 1967 11 +5.487
97.582mph
9 +1:38.514
94.016mph
26 1:55.945
96.447mph
Dunlop  
BadBlood
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 15 +12.385
92.042mph
10 +3L
88.576mph
24 2:01.199
92.266mph
Disco
Dunlop  
maddog
 SuperCup Pastit Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 18 11 +8L
93.637mph
19 1:54.463
97.696mph
Disco
Dunlop  
blito
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 12 +5.996
97.151mph
12 +12L
87.529mph
15 2:03.360
90.650mph
Disco
Dunlop  
MagicArsouille
 SuperCup LOL'Team 2
Porsche 910 GT 1967 3 +0.318
102.192mph
13 (+1) +20L
99.911mph
7 1:50.361
101.327mph
Disco
Dunlop  
RBald
 SuperCup GPFun
Porsche 910 GT 1967 19 14 +2:00.225
86.619mph
7 2:01.783
91.824mph
Disco
Dunlop  
andrwe
 SuperCup GPFun
Porsche 910 GT 1967 6 +2.323
100.353mph
15 +24L
93.108mph
3 1:53.434
98.582mph
Disco
Dunlop  
francesco
 SuperCup Pastit Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 13 +6.175
97.000mph
16 (+2) +25L
85.484mph
2 2:02.029
91.639mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Raoni Frizzo
 SuperCup Team Coyote
Porsche 910 GT 1967 8 +3.400
99.393mph
17 +26L
92.028mph
1 1:58.400
94.447mph
Disco
Dunlop  
DuFossa
 SuperCup Team Coyote
Porsche 910 GT 1967 16 +12.770
91.751mph
18 +15.269
81.755mph
1 2:06.897
88.123mph
Disco
Dunlop  
HendyNichols
 
Porsche 910 GT 1967 20 19 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
Porsche 910 GT 1967 17 20 ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

Mexico is the scene of many great races in the past for UKGPL and this was no different.

Surely a track this wide meant there was room for everyone so it should be a fairly easy moderation.........

Tempers seemed a little frayed at times on track which in the heat of battle is normal as long as we keep within the limits of our Sporting Regulations, but tempers getting frayed in the forums and chat room after the race crosses the line of conduct and gives a poor impression of the tight but welcoming community that we have built up at UKGPL over a period of years.

On to the race then which all moderators have reviewed following the furore that surrounded it.


Server replay time: 0h03m20s

Hristo is swatting a fly that has got into his cockpit.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h03m35s

Juha brakes too late at the chicane and runs into the back of Hristo. Whether or not Hristo was slower than normal because of traffic in front of him it is Juha's responsibility to avoid a collision.


Server replay time: 0h03m42s

Hristo ends up facing the wrong way at the hairpin after Juha's touch and he is desperate to get going again.

He can clearly see back along the track and see that cars are approaching but he attempts to spin and rejoin in front of them. It is not up to the approaching drivers to allow him room to rejoin, he must find a clear piece of track to drive back into, even if that means waiting for a gap in the traffic and losing positions.


Server replay time: 0h04m40s

Andreas overtakes Fran who goes too tight knowing that Andreas is there which contributes to his demise as he is pushed left with a warp contact.

Fran ends up riding the top of the rail around Peralta and his three wheel Porsche is out of control as his car comes back onto the track in front of Blito who has nowhere to go.

Fran rolls and then tries to recover onto the racing line where Paul is now fast approaching and hits him with no way to avoid him.


Server replay time: 0h07m31s

Andreas hits Arf who blocks half of the track.
Andreas saw Arf early enough and could perhaps have done more to avoid him.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h14m55s

Tristan seems aggressive into the right hander but is equally so on other laps when he takes the same line but he does take a risk as he could see Hristo in his mirrors on the approach going for the inside.

I think Tristan is surprised by Paul's lower exit speed here and expects him to be quicker, even though it is the second time he has lapped him. As a result he gets it completely wrong, hits the barrier and bounces back into Paul.

"In a corner, after a legitimate overtaking attempt the cars end up side by side. One driver moves over instead of staying on their own side of the track. Contact is made. Penalty for driver that moves over."

Hristo then hits Tristan.


Server replay time: 0h28m45s

Sergio and Hristo fast approach T1 and aim to lap BB at the same time.
Sergio loses control under braking and Hristo takes advantage by nipping through on the inside.
Sergio fights to recover and keep to the inside but he suffers what appears to be a slight warp from Hristo as the server shows no contact.

Warp Incident

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h42m15s

Hristo moves to the inside under braking for the hairpin but has no overlap at turn in and should back out of the move.
Hristo feels that Sergio blocks by turning in early, but Sergio takes the same tight line on other occasions (lap 25 for example).


Server replay time: 0h42m20s

Sergio retakes the lead at the next chicane and Hristo touches the back of him as his exit speed is higher than Sergio's.
As only Hristo is affected.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h47m47s

Sergio makes a late braking move up the inside of the hairpin.
He has no overlap at turn in and does get the car stopped and around but only by hitting Hristo in the process.


Server replay time: 0h48m16s

Sergio loses control through the esses and is unpredictable as he exits the final left hander.
Hristo goes to make a pass as Sergio attempts to recover control and just clips Sergio.

  • Racing incident

SimRacing.org.uk Lap Records
Grand Prix Legends
GT 1967
1:49.109
102.490mph
clouds
Qualifying
Porsche 910July 29, 2011, 09:52:21 PM +0100
S21PSC
Grand Prix Legends
GT 1967
1:48.821
102.761mph
Hristo Itchov
Race
Porsche 910July 29, 2011, 09:52:21 PM +0100
S21PSC
July 29, 2011, 10:46:41 PM +0100 - Mexico City (1962-1979) - UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Porsche
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
EvilClive
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 2
Porsche 910 GT 1967 1 1:50.031
101.641mph
1 50:20.148
99.981mph
27 1:50.251
101.438mph
Dunlop  
G Jonsson
 SuperCup Black Night
Porsche 910 GT 1967 2 +0.985
100.739mph
2 +39.717
98.684mph
27 1:52.080
99.783mph
Dunlop  
Pedro vd Berg
 SuperCup Black Night
Porsche 910 GT 1967 3 +1.479
100.293mph
3 +48.146
98.413mph
27 1:51.946
99.902mph
Dunlop  
fpolicardi
 SuperCup Team7
Porsche 910 GT 1967 5 +2.420
99.454mph
4 +1:01.473
97.987mph
27 1:52.503
99.408mph
Dunlop  
NickyIckx
 SuperCup Pasti Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 6 +3.292
98.688mph
5 +1:30.783
97.064mph
27 1:53.122
98.864mph
Dunlop  
norbert
 SuperCup Pasti Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 8 +5.328
96.947mph
6 +10L
93.960mph
17 1:55.122
97.146mph
Disco
Dunlop  
vosblod
 SuperCup Clark-Hill
Porsche 910 GT 1967 10 +7.039
95.530mph
7 +23L
82.025mph
4 2:01.327
92.178mph
Disco
Dunlop  
il_lupo_mannaro
 SuperCup Black Night
Porsche 910 GT 1967 7 +3.969
98.102mph
8 +25L
92.779mph
2 1:56.232
96.218mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Caracciola
 SuperCup LOL'Team 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 4 +2.267
99.589mph
9 +26L
92.123mph
1 1:59.345
93.709mph
Disco
Dunlop  
s2173
 SuperCup Team7
Porsche 910 GT 1967 9 +6.209
96.212mph
10 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  
8 GPG
 
Porsche 910 GT 1967 11 11 ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

No reported incidents and a clean lap 1.

Just like the other server perhaps?

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Porsche - Mexico City (1962-1979) - Jul 29  (Read 16453 times)
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BadBlood
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« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2011, 10:38:29 AM +0100 »

Thanks Clouds. As always, UKGPL3 will be running Porsches from Wednesday.
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tom_g
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« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2011, 12:21:11 PM +0100 »

Hi all,

I'm not at home since two weeks, so i was not able to race at Mexico.
I didn't know i'll be there for the next race........let's see


see you Smiley

ToM
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miner2049er
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« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2011, 10:06:45 PM +0100 »

Race Mod published.
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2011, 10:55:05 PM +0100 »

I see the replays I sent were COMPLETELY ignored, otherwise you would have penalized Raoni for rearending Arf on lap 2 at the hairpin which would've also lessened my 3 places penalty (When was it you've given that penalty any recently? You don't even give it to much worse examples of bad driving which we witness all the time).

Also, if my replays were not ignored, you would have not penalized me for the incident with Sergio at the hairpin. An incident which is an EXACT repeat of what happened between myself and Natan in the Pro race at Salzburgring and where Tim logically blamed the driver in front for turning earlier than normal after seeing the driver behind already committing for a pass. You're telling me he took the same line in previous laps, but what has that to do with anything? It has compeltely no relevance when you fight with another car and have to account for its position, not just take the lines you took whatever laps earlier. Am I supposed to predict such a thing and never make a move? What if he took the middle line 3 laps earlier, would he be entitled to do it from then on regardless of who is nearby?  Huh

Ridiculous, I'm definitely going to appeal to this... I'm getting very disappointed with recent moderation that seems to follow no common sense whatsoever OR it doesn't take all reports and replays into account, or is simply biased. First the Spec race Mexico incident, which was a joke to be penalized for, and now this. Are you trying to tell me something?  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 10:57:50 PM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

clouds
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« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2011, 11:31:35 PM +0100 »

Hahahah never I've seen a report much longer than this and effectively there was much to investigate for, anyway also if my race has been one of the best I've ever made, I think your mod is correct at most so for me the facts involved are closed!
Thanks for your patience hoping you will have not to work so much YahoooOOooooo!!!  Wink Grin Roll Eyes

P.S.: next time, maybe it could be better if I send you my private replay instead to use the official server replay, does it ?

BB
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 11:35:36 PM +0100 by clouds » Logged

Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

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« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2011, 05:35:53 AM +0100 »

Keep laughing, Sergio, but you know very well the truth is not what was being presented in that moderation and I'm on a mission to prove it because I'm tired of seeing this either frivolous, biased or inconsistent incident ruling. For that reason, I made a video that observes and compares incidents from this race, as follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djY67DeGVTQ

What to look for in the video

Although explained in the video, I want to add some more information that was impossible to put in the video. Starting first with the Arf-Raoni incident, which was not even moderated (but something silly about an imaginary fly was?? great):

1) One could say that Arf actually changed his line under braking and that would be considered blocking, as Raoni has already taken the middle line in the braking zone.

2) Raoni was even further backwards compared to the incident with Sergio for which I was penalized, therefore there was no overlap at all, nor Arf changed his line just before the corner. In addition, as is visible from the replay, Raoni is carrying much more speed prior to the impact than anyone in front of him, including the race leader at the time.

3) Compared to my incident with Sergio, in which he was only sent wide and actually took back his position as soon as the next corner, the impact between Raoni and Arf was much harder and would have very likely retired them even if I wasn't doing my turn around maneuver.

4) Had Arf taken a normal line and not turned into the corner so early, he would've only been hit by Raoni and would have not hit my car at all.

5) To call this an appallingly bad rejoin and rob me of 3 places is obviously judging it not from my own abilities and judgement, but someone else's, and is not objective at all. Had I brought up just a bit more revs and produced a wheel spin, I would've rejoined well on time. That I consider to be my only true fault in all this and the rest is more down to bad circumstances, not the least helped by Raoni and Arf making contact with each other.

Now, onto the 4 in 1 view comparison shot (which I advise you to watch with the Youtube video slider a couple of times so you can observe all details):

1) Top-left view:  I make my intentions very clear and am already close to or into Sergio's blind spot under braking, but he turns noticeably earlier into the corner. Had my car not been there, he would've hit the tire on the inside... For this I get a Blatant Rear End Shunt — 2 places lost penalty.

2) Top-right view: Juha realizes he's braking too late as soon as he begins to brake, and tries his best to avoid hitting me by swerving to the outside of the corner. His good intent is obvious by his momentarily locked tire. Although responsible, he only puts me into a mild spin, and despite it being a totally different situation to the above, he also gets a Blatant Rear End Shunt — 2 places lost penalty.

3) Bottom-left view: Sergio is recovering from a half-spin on the exit of the previous corner and drops quite far behind before the hairpin. Amazingly he tries to brake some 50 meters later than normal, carries much more speed into the corner and does not even attempt to avoid hitting me - he uses my car as a mean to slow down his own. He as well gets a Blatant Rear End Shunt — 2 places lost penalty, except in this case he totally deserves it and this incident is completely different to either of the previous 2, not the least because of Sergio not doing anything to try and avoid an incident. This is what I call ill-intended driving and it should be a factor when handing out penalties.

4) Bottom-right view: As mentioned earlier, Raoni starts his braking quite late (and that from a keyboard driver who can't lock his wheels even if he wanted to), stays in the middle of the road, Arf moves over (and I'm more inclined to think he's entitled to do that as he's a car length in front), and Raoni goes straight into his back. Despite reporting that, despite providing replays, despite instructing moderators to study the situation carefully, this remains completely ignored and is not even moderated, let alone any penalties given to either Arf or Raoni. In a situation which is much more controversial than the one I was given a blatant rearend shunt penalty for, nobody is even considered responsible.

And then we come to the comparison of my incident with Natan at Salzburgring vs. the one with Sergio here. Same conditions, same situations, but completely opposite rulings. The video shows it all really, so see for yourself, then think how honest you actually are when you hand out such harsh penalties just like this, and especially when you give the same type of penalty for 3 so different incidents, where responsibility and intentions of both drivers are much different to each other.

Considering I had no record of bad moves and penalties, you sure used me well as a scapegoat to, I don't know, send some vague and subjective message to everyone else, and just promote more of this inconsistent way to deal with incidents, as well as motivate drivers to keep causing them. You are also unable to differentiate between obvious pattern of ill-intended and disrespectful driving vs. simple loss of control, imperfect judgement or in other words - actions that lead to racing incidents where the responsibility is shared (and which do and will happen almost every race).

I'm looking forward to the next PM that tells me to shut up so I can ignore it this time (and no basis for it really, because there's no profanity in my post). And I will also not believe anymore the promises of objective moderation that takes all evidence and points of view into account, because I spent 2 hours writing all my reports (without which you wouldn't have even moderated half of those situations), cutting replays, watching from different angles and using common sense to describe you how the situations unfolded. What do I get in return? Some lame joke about a fly, a completely ignored rearend shunt moderation, a severe penalty without prior infringement which no driver was given any recently despite absolutely appalling driving by some people (particularly in lower divisions), a penalty for incident that is not even caused by me and at best should be ruled out as a racing incident, and lastly, no penalty or warning for my little tap to Sergio's back near the end of the race which was much more of a rearend shunt than anything before that...

To me (and some others who I won't name) it seems this moderation, which should've taken MUCH more time than usual because of the numerous complex situations, was actually rushed and done with, before even moderation for other races that happened prior to this one was complete. Are you expecting me to believe that you really got all moderators involved in these cases as was promised before-hand, and that they would rather moderate this than do their own division moderation first. Hardly believable and the quality of moderation here is a proof of that.

Have a nice day,

-=Hristo=-

P.S. I fully expect the people who don't take racing in here seriously to make silly jokes with it, disrespecting those who do take it seriously, but it would be good if we can actually have some discussion that goes beyond that.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 05:44:59 AM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

vosblod
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« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2011, 06:29:51 AM +0100 »

I fully expect the people who don't take racing in here seriously to make silly jokes with it, disrespecting those who do take it seriously,
Sorry H isn't this a little bit nutty? Sergio bit his punishment and you Appealed. So what is all this rubbish about??? TBH honest mate you are now making yourself look like a joke
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 07:01:14 AM +0100 by vosblod » Logged
miner2049er
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« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2011, 09:18:26 AM +0100 »

Thanks for your patience hoping you will have not to work so much YahoooOOooooo!!!  Wink Grin Roll Eyes

Yes, that would be nice, LOL.

P.S.: next time, maybe it could be better if I send you my private replay instead to use the official server replay, does it ?

For most things it doesn't matter but if warp is involved then it is very important to send your own replay clip as it will almost certainly be different from the server replay.
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miner2049er
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« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2011, 10:09:55 AM +0100 »

Starting first with the Arf-Raoni incident, which was not even moderated (but something silly about an imaginary fly was?? great):

That shows that very early in the race you were getting annoyed, so your actions during the race have to be taken in context if any were done in anger, not that I think any were, but it is worth noting, so I noted it.

I don't want to comment on the individual incidents at this stage as they will be the subject of an appeal and we will clearly not agree, so we don't want another forum row dragging on. I will leave the appeal process to run its course.

I spent 2 hours writing all my reports (without which you wouldn't have even moderated half of those situations)

Outside of lap 1, no, we wouldn't because this division is reported incidents only so your time did not go to waste.

To me (and some others who I won't name) it seems this moderation, which should've taken MUCH more time than usual because of the numerous complex situations, was actually rushed

It has taken almost 2 weeks which is longer than any other mod this season in a division run by me apart from those when I was on holiday or busy at work.

Are you expecting me to believe that you really got all moderators involved in these cases as was promised before-hand

No.

It is the truth but whether or not you believe it is up to you.
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #69 on: August 11, 2011, 11:55:39 AM +0100 »

I fully expect the people who don't take racing in here seriously to make silly jokes with it, disrespecting those who do take it seriously,
Sorry H isn't this a little bit nutty? Sergio bit his punishment and you Appealed. So what is all this rubbish about??? TBH honest mate you are now making yourself look like a joke


I remember a certain Vosblod agreeing with me in chat about how people have different views on racing and how there should be mutual respect in regards to that, which is clearly not the case on this forum on a number of occasions, but now you're telling me I'm looking like a joke for speaking the very same truth?

I also see you picked up the least important sentence in my otherwise extensive post and ignored everything else. Don't you have anything else to say on the matter? Are you trying to shift the focus into something irrelevant to the points I'm trying to bring up here? Or maybe being silent on the matter means you agree with what I said, lol. Which is it?

@Mike - you don't ever want to admit in public if you made a mistake with moderation, nor discuss the actual incidents to make it clear for everyone else what your views on racing are, and what logic exactly you followed when coming up with these decisions, because to me they're highly illogical and inconsistent. If you can't see that on the video, then there's no way to convince you otherwise.

As for me being angry and how that affected my race, you seem very confident of knowing what goes in my mind while racing, I congratulate you on having the confidence to assume such a thing, but what it only goes to show is how ignorant you are about my approach to and throughout races, probably judging it on your own views, senses, abilities and way of thinking. I challenge you to show me anyone in this league that is more in control of their car and car positioning in this league than me, who knows where their own limit is as good as I do and who steps over that limit as infrequently as me. To penalize me with 5 places lost overall, for a maneuver that was not done in a blind decision but by taking all factors into account (as written in my report) and for an incident that I never caused myself, and considering my record of clean racing, that looks like nothing else but purposeful scapegoat making with no real basis whatsoever. At the same time people who repeatedly cause incident by noticeable disrespectful on-track behaviour are given the same minimum penalties over and over again, just so they can do the same thing again next race, without learning anything from the previous (and why should they). In fact very often they're not even being moderated and penalized.

Ah, and something I forgot to comment on and that seems to be giving away your biased thinking in regards to myself:

"Sergio retakes the lead at the next chicane and Hristo touches the back of him as his exit speed is higher than Sergio's.
As only Hristo is affected. - Racing incident"

First of all, I never touched his back, I avoided his back by turning right into the curb, as he literally lifted up/braked in the middle of the corner where you normally accelerate. How could I have higher exit speed when I'm the one being passed? He obviously had higher speed, but suddenly lost all that speed in the middle of the corner... And also, with the way you worded this, are you suggesting that if there was contact and Sergio's car was affected, it would not have been a racing incident, but my fault? And that since it was just me who was affected, it's OK to say that Sergio shared no responsibility at all? If that's not bias or imaginary thinking then I don't know what it is.  Roll Eyes Perhaps it simply proves you're not capable of reading replays and understanding racing situations, even when you're being helped by those involved with information and client replays.

I'm getting tired of how topics that are apparently uncomfortable to certain individuals in this league are next to being forbidden for discussion on the forum, something which would otherwise shed a lot of light on what people see and think, and would help every driver learn something, especially our Novices and Privateers who are still in the dark on what's accepted as allowed actions on the track. It's OK to say the reason is profanity, but when that's lacking, the excuses become sort of ridiculous and childish, and the focus turns to petty personal attacks instead of the discussed topic.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 12:14:10 PM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

miner2049er
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« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2011, 12:47:10 PM +0100 »

@Mike - you don't ever want to admit in public if you made a mistake with moderation

Based on what?

Clearly the appeal process is there to help drivers if I (or any other mod) make a mistake during a moderation, and some of my decisions have been changed, reversed or found to be too lenient this season. That shows I was wrong or my opinion was not that of the majority or the Chief Moderator. I have no issue with that at all and if anybody wants to discuss how I saw an incident and arrived at my decision I will do it, but nobody ever has in public. I have discussed incidents in private when I have received PMs from drivers, and if anybody has any doubts about my ability to judge incidents they have the season reviews or of course the forums and PMs to make their thoughts known.

If you want my opinion on these particular incidents I will discuss them after your appeal(s), otherwise the appeal process itself could be deemed to be unfair.

As for my "biased thinking in regards to" yourself how many races of yours have I moderated compared to the number of penalites I have given you?

I am not calling into question your car control, car positioning or mindset during racing, I am merely of the opinion that in this race you made some mistakes that could and should have been avoided and I awarded penalties based on that, and that alone.

You mention this incident with Sergio, and as it only has a Racing Incident against it, I assume you will not appeal it so I will discuss it, but you have answerred your own question:
"How could I have higher exit speed when I'm the one being passed?"

because

"he literally lifted up/braked in the middle of the corner where you normally accelerate"

as you were doing, so your speed was higher. Sergio entered more quickly which is how he made the pass so he would exit more slowly, while you entered more slowly than him and would be quicker out.

And also, with the way you worded this, are you suggesting that if there was contact and Sergio's car was affected, it would not have been a racing incident

Perhaps, yes, but I did not say what decision I would have arrived at, you have done that for yourself.

I'm getting tired of how topics that are apparently uncomfortable to certain individuals in this league are next to being forbidden for discussion on the forum,

I answered this earlier. Once the appeal process is finished with I will discuss how I arrived at my decisions, yet in the meantime you are confident in singling me out while all the moderators who looked at the replays are of the same opinion.
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2011, 09:57:43 PM +0100 »

Clearly the appeal process is there to help drivers if I (or any other mod) make a mistake during a moderation, and some of my decisions have been changed, reversed or found to be too lenient this season. That shows I was wrong or my opinion was not that of the majority or the Chief Moderator. I have no issue with that at all and if anybody wants to discuss how I saw an incident and arrived at my decision I will do it, but nobody ever has in public. I have discussed incidents in private when I have received PMs from drivers, and if anybody has any doubts about my ability to judge incidents they have the season reviews or of course the forums and PMs to make their thoughts known.

Well, how am I supposed to be aware of that? There's never a mention of appeal process going on, nor the public is made aware when the appeal process is over and an incident ruling changed. At least I have not witnessed it at all during all my seasons in UKGPL. I have not seen this happen at all. Therefore the public face of moderation is that moderators never admit their mistakes and that's where I was coming from.

If you want my opinion on these particular incidents I will discuss them after your appeal(s), otherwise the appeal process itself could be deemed to be unfair.

As for my "biased thinking in regards to" yourself how many races of yours have I moderated compared to the number of penalites I have given you?

Yes, I do prefer a normal discussion because you and the other moderators are also racing drivers, and while you moderate today, you will be driving against me tomorrow, so if we're not on the same page, how can we race normally? As for your question, it just proves I was not involved in any accidents prior to this, yet I received what is probably the highest number of places lost by a driver in a single race, in 2 incidents, based on no prior rule infringements. That's why it seems biased or frivolous, especially if you compare my situations to other definitely worse situations where either the same penalty was given or a lesser penalty was given. I very often have the feeling that some people in UKGPL, based on my statistics, expect me to perform miracles in situations where they themselves would not be able to avoid contact, and that if I don't do that my responsibility is higher than it really is.

I am not calling into question your car control, car positioning or mindset during racing, I am merely of the opinion that in this race you made some mistakes that could and should have been avoided and I awarded penalties based on that, and that alone.

Yes, but you spoke of anger which goes straight to mindset. FYI anger can be used very well if it's controlled, to give you more pace and that's exactly what happened. It did not lead to doing disrespectful moves or bad decisions for almost the whole duration of the race (and I do include lap 2 hairpin), with the exception of the little tap near the end which would have probably been avoided had not all the negative situations occurred earlier during the whole race. In other words, it was only by the end of the race that I got really frustrated and angry, and allowed my driving to be affected by that in a negative way. In comparison, some other drivers drove like that right from lap 1 and that does not seem to be taken into consideration at all, which I guess means it was not even looked upon despite my instructions and advice to observe the patterns before looking into each situation, because patterns should have much weight into how you judge someone's behaviour.

The fact that some drivers did not receive even a warning for situations that were deemed as "racing incidents" or that they didn't get any tips on how to tackle such situations in the future, to me it shows that each situation was looked upon in isolation, yet when the focus turned to my driving, you spoke of anger affecting my race. How am I to believe that such thoughts had no affection on your moderation of the situations I was involved in? Normally what we witness in race moderation are gradual steps of tips, warning, yellow cars, light penalties and more severe penalties, but in this case it was either the worse or nothing. That is what also makes it appear as if the moderation was done in a rush.

You mention this incident with Sergio, and as it only has a Racing Incident against it, I assume you will not appeal it so I will discuss it, but you have answerred your own question:
"How could I have higher exit speed when I'm the one being passed?"

because

"he literally lifted up/braked in the middle of the corner where you normally accelerate"

as you were doing, so your speed was higher. Sergio entered more quickly which is how he made the pass so he would exit more slowly, while you entered more slowly than him and would be quicker out.

Except he was in the middle of the track and had all the road to the right (and ahead) of himself, which could have been used to continue with normal acceleration. It's simply common sense and when you race someone of that caliber, you rely on common sense that they won't brake/lift up in the middle of the corner, otherwise it would be impossible to race anyone. It goes to predictability.

And also, with the way you worded this, are you suggesting that if there was contact and Sergio's car was affected, it would not have been a racing incident

Perhaps, yes, but I did not say what decision I would have arrived at, you have done that for yourself.

I'm getting tired of how topics that are apparently uncomfortable to certain individuals in this league are next to being forbidden for discussion on the forum,

I answered this earlier. Once the appeal process is finished with I will discuss how I arrived at my decisions, yet in the meantime you are confident in singling me out while all the moderators who looked at the replays are of the same opinion.

I single you out based on what I see in here, nothing more. I can't quite believe in all moderators having the same opinion, considering some of those moderators would treat a similar situation in the opposite manner in regards to handing out penalties. Even if what you say is really the case, then we get to my other point which is inconsistency of applying the rules and which leads to rather random and unpredictable outcome during moderation. It kills all motivation to continue reporting incidents at all.

Anyway, I really would like a discussion, whether in private or in chat, if it's such a problem for you to have it here in public, so I hope we do that after the appeal process is over.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 10:03:40 PM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

blito
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« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2011, 10:50:19 PM +0100 »

Very norty of Mike to hand out a penalty! We all know that Hristo is practically perfect in every way!

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Jason Blito
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« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2011, 11:18:46 PM +0100 »

Well, how am I supposed to be aware of that? There's never a mention of appeal process going on

Well any driver affected will know as their race position and points will change if the original moderation is changed.

I'm not sure how interested anyone not affected by it is, unless they reviewed the race and the moderation beforehand. Otherwise how will they know if either the moderation or the appeal are correct?

it just proves I was not involved in any accidents prior to this, yet I received what is probably the highest number of places lost by a driver in a single race.

Each incident is judged on its own merits. If a driver does something that under our rules attracts a 3 place penalty they will receive a 3 place penalty. Whether it is their 1st, 3rd or 21st penalty, under the rules they will get a 3 place penalty.

The totting up system we have around red and yellow cards is used to show repeat offenders that they need to do something differently.

anger can be used very well if it's controlled, to give you more pace and that's exactly what happened.

Which is why I said earlier that I did not think it affected any of your incidents.

it was not even looked upon despite my instructions and advice to observe the patterns before looking into each situation

I think you need to give the moderators a little more credit. If you ask us to look at something then I can assure you that we do.

Just because we didn't agree with you and punish the people you wanted us to punish, or not punish you at all, doesn't mean we didn't look.

to me it shows that each situation was looked upon in isolation, yet when the focus turned to my driving, you spoke of anger affecting my race.

You need to read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote, I said I didn't think it affected your incidents and none of the moderated incidents mention your anger.

in this case it was either the worse or nothing.

If an incident is covered under the rules and has a 3 place penalty, then a 3 place penalty will be applied.

Anyway, I really would like a discussion, whether in private or in chat, if it's such a problem for you to have it here in public, so I hope we do that after the appeal process is over.

I have already said that I will do it in the forums after the appeal is finished. I don't think we should do it before that so that the appeal process is seen to be fair and unaffected by anything you or I should post.

Just about that, you have given your side of the incidents in your reports, I have given my side of the incidents in the moderation and you have countered them in your appeal. I am not a part of the appeal process, that is done by the Chief Moderator and the Senior Consultant, so I should not interfere with that process which is normal for any kind of appeal.
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john roberts
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« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2011, 03:16:08 AM +0100 »

Quote from: Hristo Itchov link=topic=9729.msg177954#msg177954
To penalize me with 5 places lost overall, for a maneuver that was not done in a blind decision but by taking all factors into account (as written in my report) and for an incident that I never caused myself, and considering my record of clean racing, that looks like nothing else but purposeful scapegoat making with no real basis whatsoever.

from what i see of the report it's not one maneuver , thou you say overall . it does disingenuously make it sound like those five places "lost" are from just the one but the report says two different mistakes cost you those places .

i do have sympathy that it was your lack of skill or rather proper car control (you did say that you lost the revs so couldn't do a proper spin recovery) ,  however that should in no way forgive for your actions !

you tried and failed to rejoin a race infront of others that had a right to the road (infront of your rights) and to blame them for not slowing down does not make you blameless , so you have been given the penalty "Appallingly Bad Rejoin" which is right ... if it had been me i'd have thrown the book at you because with your skill i'd have expected better .

i hope that you take this advise in the right way , but i know you won't and expect a reply (that i won't reply to .. so you might as well make it as long and as complex as you like) .

happy racing .

john
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