UKGPL Season 23 (2012) Porsche Cup (GT) - Imola - Sep 28

[Hristo Itchov]

However , pity Sergio you have been  gone out , even to me last collision could have been that drastic in result cause of warp ( server replay doesn’t show any direct contact ) , I am sure its an easy job for the administration . I agree that the leading driver can take any line he wants to , as long he is not weaving left /right  and you didn’t have done that .

The leading car CANNOT take any line when there is another car in its blind spot, which usually means the two cars overlap, even if partially. You and some other people are so clueless at times, and that's why you always end up in accidents. I'm not going to comment any further, just awaiting for the moderator's report.

[Cookie]

Moderation published!

[Hristo Itchov]

I'm not going to take part in these series anymore. To first penalize me for the Aqua Minerale incident instead of calling it a racing incident, and especially since I returned the position anyway. And then to call what happened at the s/f line a racing incident must be one of the worst rulings I've seen in this league. To not be able to see the ill intentions of a certain driver is what I call a complete lack of understanding about racing etiquette. Enjoy racing with such people, I don't. Enjoy the sub-par moderation as well. Things seem to be going downhill in recent seasons where dirty driving is accepted and accidental situations are being blamed on just 1 driver. I've had enough of this bullshit. I don't even see the point of firing an appeal, why should I bother with that every time instead of hoping for an unbiased review by the series moderators themselves?

[Artiglietti]

Guys, I had a look at this incident and I must admit you have me a bit confused now. Can we clarify, for once without polemics over the top, so we all know where we stand and what is the expected behaviour in the races?

The first incident is the one about the blocking (it is at 46.20mins I think). Sergio is obviously driving in the middle of the road on the run down to Rivazza. This is not his usual trajectory as it is easily visible confronting this with his previous laps. He sits there until Hristo makes a move to the inside, at which point he clearly reacts to that by moving toward the inside himself, thus covering the tiny space of tarmac he had left free. The reason why there is not space for Hristo to go on the left, is because Sergio is in the middle of the road. As a matter of fact, H was having a look at the outside (right) just after the Acque Minerali, but there was no space there either..I remember a very long moderation about blocking, where people have been penalised for much less clear swerving across the track, after they had positioned themselves in the middle of the track (you can find it here  https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=8548#event2388 ). I think the rules refer to 'persistent driving in the middle of the road and blocking', and the reiteration of the behaviour is probably the reason why in the case of that race the punishment was so harsh. Also, Imola is one of those tracks that is never straight, which might be a mitigating factor as well, as the swearving can be influenced by the flow of the track. So can you please confirm we are allowed to do that occasionally? Say, next race in Works, in the run down from Les Combes, just before those long esses? Sitting in the middle of the road and reacting to what people behind are doing? Thats really not a proper straight either. 

The second incident is equally confusing. The replay is not 100% clear, but the two cars collide, so there must have been some overlapping, otherwise they wouldnt have hit each other, or am I missing something? So, why, isnt this falling in the category of simple side by side contact? Even if you wanted to call warp into play (which I dont think is appropriate here, as it is more a case of clashing collision boxes), shouldnt Sergio's behaviour be at least reprimended? The moderation talks about both drivers having to be more careful, but what is Hristo supposed to do? He is attempting a pass in the widest and most logical overtaking spot on the track, and he is bracing the inside, with the wheels almost or actually on the grass! Sergio could see him coming, could see him disappearing for a good while in his mirrors, but turns in as if he was alone! You can argue Hristo had very little overlapping, still it was sufficient for the accident to happen, and both drivers wouldnt have had a clue about it anyway..Actually, they manage to go side by side in that same spot of tarmac more than once in the previous few laps, just because on those occasions the driver on the outside leaves space, as I think is required by the rules. In the Privs race at Riverside, I think Andreas was penalised for doing exactly what Sergio did, and he was the only car being affected for good measure !

It would be great if, for once, we could have a simple, straightforward discussion about our points of view. The fact that some people state the car ahead has every right to chose the line regardless of what the guy behind is doing, kind of leaves me perplexed, as it is obviously an attitude thats not going to work when racing with this game and its notorious massive blind spots and awkward collision boxes. Also, it seems to me the rules about blocking need clarification after this moderation. Cheers guys, have a good day.

[BadBlood]

I think you have made some really good points Art. The only thing that I can tell you is that when there is a contentious moderation we seek additional views.

The big problem is that every incident is subjective. There is no doubt that each of these incidents could have had different outcomes had the drivers taken slightly different actions. Sergio could have left a bit more room and H could have been a bit more patient.

The onus in the rules is always on the car behind to make a clean pass. Something that is very hard with evenly matched drivers at 100%.

Regarding blocking, it is very hard to say whether Sergio was weaving to block H. Having watched the entire race, I honestly don't think so.

The pertinent quote about centre line driving is: "Persistent driving down the centreline of the track in order to make passing difficult is not acceptable. The moderators will take a sensible approach in enforcing this; the idea is to stop blatant centre line driving, not penalise every possible case. For most drivers this rule should make racing safer as well as more fun"

Persistent is the key here. Defensive driving is allowed, you don't have to make yourself easy to pass (although a more give and take attitude in general might make racing more fun) but where is the boundary between defensive and blocking.

Defensive driving tends to be taking a less than ideal line into a corner. Centre line driving is more about straights.

If you look at the first one, after the contact, H gives the place back   Sergio then drives back straight in front of H but it is on the racing groove. As they start the next lap Sergio deliberately takes a defensive position (he steers left to cover H) but at the corner he is steering hard left until the corner unwinds. The unusual line is a result of the defensive position. H can't make the pass on the right.

This is full on 100% committed and I think that neither driver wants to give an inch which is why the incidents occur. Sergio is in a stronger position because he is ahead.

The final incident hinges on whether Sergio chops across H. Is he entitled to turn in? Well, yes, because although H is nearly alongside, he isn't far enough up to claim the line. It is incontestable that Sergio could have left more room (and I wish he had and would urge all drivers to do so) but he doesn't have to according to the rules. This is covered in some depth in the recommended driver behaviour page.

By the rules the driver ahead can take the corner, it is down to the overtaking car to make a clean pass. What the driver ahead cannot do is to move across once somebody has overlap and is committed to their line. That is a breach of etiquette and the last incident comes perilously close to that. Against that the Recommended Driver Behaviour states: If in doubt, lift. Which one applies here, difficult to say. Has H got overlap before Sergio turns in? Possibly but it is very tight. Should H give this one up as Sergio has shown that he is unlikely to yield? Possibly but that wouldn't be full-on racing.

Lots to ponder and although Racing Incident may not be ideal it is certainly not unreasonable. That is why we have the appeals procedure.

Finally, as for blocking, Art, it all depends on the track geometry, the drivers involved (and relative deltas etc.) and, of course, the moderator's own prejudices which we try to eliminate by moderating as a team but are bound to colour any moderation.

Clear as mud? Want to be a moderator?

Anyway, open for discussion.

[Hristo Itchov]

The big problem is that every incident is subjective. There is no doubt that each of these incidents could have had different outcomes had the drivers taken slightly different actions. Sergio could have left a bit more room and H could have been a bit more patient.

Patient? Really? Please explain what do you mean by being patient when the driver in front clearly opens the door on a straight or flat out piece of road, inviting an attack, and is not forced to turn into my path but could instead continue forward. Accidents may be subjective, but in such cases it is obviously the fault of the other driver for choosing to change direction first, for choosing to close the door, to block the path of the other driver, disregarding where the other driver is, what speed he is going, how close the cars are and whether he is in the blind spot or not. If by patient you mean I shouldn't attack at all, then we might as well not be racing at all.

If you watch ALL of my races, you will see that I never do such dirty moves where I open the door, then close it. I always leave room when a driver attacks me from behind, I wouldn't block in the last moment, risking an accident. If I am slower and another driver has attacked me and gone into my blind spot, overlapping his car with mine, what right do I have to turn into his path? Even if the overlap is minor, or even if there is none, when the chance that there might be some overlapping, I wouldn't turn in. Sergio here does it 3 times in the last couple of laps and yet you talk about patience. To me his driving is an obvious ill intention driving where he just can't accept that he's being attacked and moves across to stop me, disregarding any potential consequences. That's the definition of blocking, if you are not aware.

The final incident hinges on whether Sergio chops across H. Is he entitled to turn in? Well, yes, because although H is nearly alongside, he isn't far enough up to claim the line. It is incontestable that Sergio could have left more room (and I wish he had and would urge all drivers to do so) but he doesn't have to according to the rules. This is covered in some depth in the recommended driver behaviour page.

How can you say he is entitled to turn in when I'm in his blind spot and he knows very well I'm there? And why does he have to chop in anyway, given that he can just go forward without compromising his speed at all? If you look 1 or 2 laps ago, the positions are reversed and I keep the outside line without any issues. It's a flat out piece of road. The reason I'm not giving up is because this is easily taken side by side flat out, it's not a corner where you have a single line possible and someone has to yield. Just the way I went side by side with him in previous laps, he could have done the same and he was not forced to turn in by any other circumstances except his own motivation to chop in front. Has he assumed he was in front despite the fact he can't see me in his mirrors? That's some wrong decision making right there, but calling it a racing incident when I'm in no fault whatsoever, I can't accept that. His unnecessary move took us both out of the race and ruined my chance for victory, as well as his own.

[Artiglietti]

Thanks Paul for the reply. I do accept that 'persistent' can be considered here the key word, re the blocking. Still, would be good to underline that sitting in the middle of the road when in a close racing situation, even occasionally, is not really a sporty way to behave. I remember a race at Monza when there was a guy who kept doing that on the run to Parabolica, which made him completely untouchable in what is one of the main overtaking spots of the track. Very frustrating. Luckily, he blew the engine after a while    My hunch is that Sergio became a bit, erm, hot under the collar after the rearending received from H, not realizing that actually Hristo had waited for him to rejoin ahead. After that, there is a bit of an 'anything goes' attitude in his driving, which I think is the main cause also of the final accident.

As for the final crash itself, I think the general agreement, and not only in this league, is that when someone is alongside you, and especially when they have disappeared from your mirrors, either entirely or partially, you should start to keep your side of the track. Sergio couldnt possibly know how much overlapping there was (and there must have been some, if there has been contact..), so closing the door was always going to be a gamble. When I see someone disappearing from my frontal view (Hristo's view in this case), I do expect them to leave my side of the track free, my bit of the work being not sliding into them. The reverse applies when I see them disappearing from my mirrors. There is something a bit artificial in this way of racing, but those are the limitations of GPL. I suppose we all know the sensation of completely losing the sense of where the other car is, just to see it reappearing either surprisingly faraway or terrifingly close! I dont think there is the need to implement this in the rules (keep your side when you lose sight, as it were..), as long as it is made clear in the moderations though. The last thing you want is people starting to turn in the corners hoping the other guy is in the blind spot and not actually alongside..

[clouds]

Hristo was not beside me. After the last corner preceding the S/F line, I've turned my head (with TrackIR) and I haven't seen him at my left side also if I heard his engine near (and in fact the replay shows clearly that there was space between us). Since he was beside me several times during the previous laps and after he kicked me out at Acque Minerali, I thought it was not the case to let him take the inside so I just followed the race line thinking that since he has the full control of the situation because he saw me while I didn't see him, he would have managed to stay at a safer distance. Instead if you watch out the replay, he neither braked nor lifted his foot. I'm in front of him so I think to have the right. I can decide where to go and when (if I'm not overlapped and...I was not) and I can do this once (if this happens more than once on the same piece of track, we could think to a blocking attempt but...it was not so). At Acque Minerali there are not so much points where to pass during braking and lesser during acceleration and indeed I think there is only one, that was why I remained so surprised of the strange overtaking attempt from Hristo in a place with inverse slope that bring you to the outside if you make a mistake (and he have lost control of his car there). If I should have made an overtake attempt there, I would have tried at the outside line having enough room, or I could have waited for a mistake, certainly not with a car that is on the race line where only one can pass.
The story with Hristo...about his gentle little pushes on my back, is now old and the discussion are old the same way but...they still are not over. At Brands (PSC season 21) I've got a "very ambitious overtake" (2 places lost) because while I was BESIDE Natan Vix, he closed the turn coming to the inside where I still was. 
The question is...Is Hristo a different driver than me ? Has he differents rights ? If it is not so, then the modders were already quite lenient with him !

[Artiglietti]

Well Sergio, lateral views are opening up your field of vision, but I doubt they even make it a realistic 180 degrees. Sometimes I use them when I am sitting on the grid before the start, and I cant even see the guy whos in the slot alongside me. So, I dont think they should be trusted so much. As a matter of fact, in this case lateral views and engine noise tricked you into believing Hristo was sufficiently behind you for you to be able to safely turn in, and he obvioulsy wasnt..He is bracing the grass, it is not as he is torpedoing you, you are chopping across and the two collision boxes clash..Plus, he cant see you from where he is sitting, unless you expect him to be using the lateral right view whilst turning left...In any case, my point wasnt much about this specific instance, more about what is the expected behaviour when in similar situations. I dont expect people to be driving in the middle of the road when I am racing them, and I dont expect people taking to the normal racing line if I they have seen me disappear in their mirrors in the preceding bit of straight. I have always known that there are people who actually race in that way, but I thought  the rules were quite clear about who should do what, apparently they are not clear in the same way for everyone.

[BadBlood]

The main point is that if you look very hard you can find a rule to cover every situation and they are sometimes apparently self-contradictory. The penalty guidelines are just that - guidelines - they don't actually form part of the rules. The moderator's job is to find the best-fit for any given situation. Sometimes that is not easy but in general the moderations are even-handed and at the very least honestly arrived at. The number of successful appeals is very low and that is no co-incidence. The moderators try very hard to find the best fit.

Sergio and H could have driven very different races and all I will say is that if people were a little bit more courteous on the road (and in the forums sometimes <ahem>) we would have less incidents to moderate.

Ideally we would like none!

In direct response to H's post above. I was only talking about patience for the first incident, that could have been avoided. As for the S/F line H never achieved ANY degree of overlap and there is no contact as such. Sergio's 'squeeze' was relatively gentle - at no point is he directly ahead of H. Would I have stayed further right, yes. Was Sergio entitled to the line he took further left, yes.

[Phil Thornton]

Gents

I think you are asking the moderators to resolve an impossible situation.  In any incident there are degrees of blame. 

In the cases where one person is totally innocent it is easy to make a ruling.  The typical situations would be a Blatant Rear End Shunt or an Impossibly Ambitious Overtake.

There are other incidents where both drivers were equally culpable.  A good example would be a Contested Side by Side contact.

However most incidents are some where between these two extremes.  In most cases the moderators can decide on balance who is at fault however in some cases it is just too close to call and in these situations the moderators have to declare a racing incident.  It may be that one driver was 51% to blame but does that mean he should shoulder 100% of the blame and  take a penalty whereas the guy who was 49% to blame is unpunished?

In this case we have two brilliant drivers fighting to the maximum and there are going to be problems if there is no give and take.  It may be that one driver was 60% to blame and the other only 40% but that means both drivers had an opportunity to prevent the incident.  Be it by not attacking in a difficult spot or by not leaving enough room.  Either way it doesn't matter both drivers loose out when there is contact.  Asking the moderators to sort out such borderline incidents is too much IMO. 

We could penalise both drivers because being 40% responsible is still responsible but how does that help?  The whole reason for the penalty system is to try to teach drivers to learn how to drive on-line and try to encourage responsible driving.  In this situation we have two experienced drivers, if they make contact they know they will be out or badly affected.  Is that not enough of a deterant?

I suggest Hristo tries to be a little more patient and wait for a really good chance to pass rather than try and make the most of every half chance.  Sergio needs to drive a little less defensively and if a driver is partially alongside (even if technically Sergio is in the lead and has the right of way) leave a little more room.  You guys are going to have to learn to treat each other with a little more respect and not to rely on the moderators to make very marginal decisions in your favour.

Art, I have been very impressed by your analysis.  Ever thought of being a moderator?

[clouds]

You can see very well at your 9oc and 3oc and with the TrackIR you are a little more free, btw I've watched at the server's replay and at mine from several points of view and I was not overlapped, Hristo was near but not overlapped. I was just behind him several times too but too much close to the turn in point to tray an attack without a possible incident (I was in good position to attack also during the straight to be honest but I've only learned his line and where he was braking). Hit a car doesn't means you are overlapped, in this case, my car swerved when there was still a little gap between us, so I think it is a problem of calculation, but like Hristo said more and more times, you have to take in count also warps and so on when you are attempting to ruin a race to someone with a bad overtake and for me who is behind have the responsibility of a rearends, you can't blame me because I'm defending my 1st place and if I make a mistake slowing down doesn't give you the right to end your run over me. I had a faster car on the straight and that is why H. was not able to pass me out of my slipstream at tamburello in the occasion of the incident and also 2 or 3 times either.
I've seen the onboard camera of Hristo and I've seen several times he was lifting his arm like to say "...he is blocking me intentionally...". Absurd ! He thinks bad of the others because he thinks the others are like him!!! (old Sicilian saying).

I'm sorry but the 2 post down were written while I was writing mine.

[Artiglietti]

Salomonic Phil.. Perfectly agree on the problem of attitude, on and off the track. However, I dont agree with the final analysis given by Paul (and Sergio, above), as I dont think Sergio had the right to turn in, quite simply. You see someone is getting alongside you, you cant possibly know precisely how much overlapping there is, you dont turn in as if no one was there, you have to leave space. Really simple and straightforward to me, so I was perplexed by not seeing this mentioned and seen as a problem in the moderation. Then of course, after the accident, we can sit there discussing if there was overlap, collision boxes clash, warp contact due to the two cars being too close. The simple fact is, if you dont see where the other car is and you invade their half of the track regardless, you are gambling, and I think that attitude should be at least reprimended. Now I know it is not the same for everyone, and, er, will have to live with it as theres not much I can do about it  !

As for:

Art, I have been very impressed by your analysis.  Ever thought of being a moderator?

I actually must have dreamed about it. Terrible nightmare.

[BadBlood]

I've seen the onboard camera of Hristo and I've seen several times he was lifting his arm...

He was just saying "Hello"

Thanks to Phil and Art for some rational thoughts. I think both should embrace a series. It's about time Phil, isn't it  

Perfectly agree on the problem of attitude, on and off the track. However, I dont agree with the final analysis given by Paul (and Sergio, above), as I dont think Sergio had the right to turn in, quite simply.

Having the right and being in the right are definitely not the same thing...

H hadn't got any overlap but was very close. I think that in those circumstances it is incumbent upon the lead driver to leave room but the rules do not insist on it.

We are in the territory of trying to assess intention and the Mods can only judge on actions and outcomes.

[vosblod]

You see someone is getting alongside you, you cant possibly know precisely how much overlapping there is, you dont turn in as if no one was there, you have to leave space. Really simple and straightforward to me, so I was perplexed by not seeing this mentioned and seen as a problem in the moderation.

Not to be devils advocate (well maybe I am) but could that not then go to the opposite extreme whereby someone just has to plonk their car to the side (out of your mirrors) and you are thereby impelled to concede / take an outside and slower less favorable line? It's a difficult one and I guess 'amount of overlap' was the obvious way to decide when the rules were written. There might be a better way...