UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Formula 2 Trophy - Jarama - Mar 17

[Raoni Frizzo]

I didn't apologize because you weren't drive fair at Watkins, that's it! I usually don't apologize to people who drive in an unfair way. Remember F2 race at Jops Siffert. That day I made a mistake at the start and I did apologize to you, simple as that.

By the way, if you pay attention to things (especially Evil's post) you will notice that my keyboard problem was only for left corners, and we were battling on a right turn. I wasn't having any problems on right corners. So, try to find a better excuse...

OK, you said that there is no rule for weaving (or zig-zagging) to avoid slipstream (although it's - in my humble opinion - a matter of fair driving and ethic than a rule). So, is there a rule prohibiting me to stay on the inside line? Because you're saying that it's unfair! So I'd like you to show me where I can find that it's unfair driving...

You claim that you're are quicker, but I don't understand what quickness is that because every race you're behind me and has to try to overtake. So you do your huge amount of mistakes and then you want people to open room to you? Is it? In your place, I would advise not to spin so much, then you don't lose so much time, lots of positions and then you don't need to lose time and patience with slow drivers like me

I'll keep driving in the same way I always do, doesn't matter who is the driver behind me. If I find necessary defending my place, I'll do FAIRLY (moving only once to the inside, remember that!).

Weaving, zig-zagging or whatever similar, never! It's against my motorsport principles...

[john roberts]

OK, you said that there is no rule for weaving (or zig-zagging) to avoid slipstream

we had this come up a few seasons ago and you are not allowed to weave or zig zag , you are allowed one move when you have another car following you , having said that if you are trying to over take a car that move can't be counted as weaving by a car behind you .

if you need a better or more detailed explanation don't hesitate to ask Clive ..

john

[DLogan]

...defending the inside line is fair behaviour.... one move to the inside and stay on the inside... thats fair and acceptable in all forms of motorsport...

And Raoni left plenty of room on the outside (even all the way through to the apex of T2, in case Tristan had tried to go around the outside, above and beyond what's required). Perfectly clean, considerate, and quality driving IMO. If any door was "closed", it was done halfway back up the straight when he moved to the inside, in plenty of time, with plenty of room.

note: I'm only talking about that corner on that lap (which is all I watched of that battle).

[tintin]

what is the most dangerous and unfair driving ? 1/ changing line 2 times to escape the slipstream whith absolutly no risk for the guy behind who is too far away ( he 's just frustrated to don't catch the slipstream ).... or, 2/ closing every doors as possible by keeping the inside, just to don't be overpassed by somebody clearly quicker at that instant of the race !???....and that when the cars are close together !!!....you never do that when you have 150 m advance  !  isn't it ?  and you tel me to take the outside  where most of the time it's just impossible ....or to wait??? to wait for what man ???waiting for that I'm taking maximum risk to overpass you ....Raoni if you are soooo quick, let the guy pass and you will easely pass him right to the next sector...

I totally agree with you Magic.

[MagicArsouille]

So Raoni, if  "you" think somebody have a unfair driving you give you the right to kick him out of track with no apologies !!.......and  you claim it hight and clear !!....humm ...simple as that !!.....what a nice demonstration of a gentleman driver behaviour !!!!....is it also at your humble opinion what you call fair driving and ethic I presume .     .....it's a chance that the guns are not autorized in motor racing ...
....well I have try to explain the difference betwin what you call 'waiving'...( absolutly safe manover -the cars are not close toghether and I dont see what the matter with that), and blocking a driver by keeping the inside, forcing the other to hard bracking or taking the outside where you perfectly know that is just impossible to overpass on the outside...( try to make the outside on me at The Loop or at Big Bend...just to laught a little ...or just wait to the next oportunitie where you will do the same manover ?....for shure, I have the choise !!.....but in fact, yes blocking somebody is unfair for me is just a recognition of feebleness or powerlessness.
....if I 'm changing line ,I don't make you lost any time ( just don't gain easy time ! )....but if you blocked me , you make me loose time , mutch time ....can you see the enormous difference ??

.....Dean, it's not halfway back, and he make the moove when he feel me in is back and if you watch well , he stay in the middle of the track, he start his ( I 'm at 235 km/h)moove 3s before the point break where the cars are very ( 50 cm ) close,  not plenty of room  at all !!yess plenty of room on his bothsides, he is right in the midle of the track, 'cause he's not on the perfect line when he keep the inside, and also for this reason he have to break earlyer than if he was on the good line and that's normal, otherways he can't turn , and you also can see that he roll on the pavement at the inside ( perfectly clean ??...are you shure ? ), and yes he let me plenty of - bad - room on the outside , of course he can't take the inside and the outside in the same time ....but I 'm shure if he can he will do also ...

......that is safe is fair..........that is dangerous is unfair .....and if you had or make some real racing you must easely anderstand that....

[Hristo Itchov]

Look, it's pretty simple really, at least from my perspective. First, about weaving vs. blocking:

You are allowed to break the tow, as long as you're not actually moving as a response to a driver's attempt to pass you, which would then be considered blocking. As long as there is a distance from the car behind, you can try and break the tow. Personally I don't think weaving too much is efficient, it loses you straight line speed and you don't really gain much because it's not so difficult for the driver behind to predict when you're about to weave and move along with you, lol.

Second, about defending by taking the inside line:

Again, it's perfectly fine, as long as you don't change your line once another drive is close to you or side by side with you. Sure, I complain about people driving too defensively early in the race, because it's counter-productive for both drivers compared to their other opponents who take the normal lines, but it's not against the rules.

In terms of etiquette, fairness, it's too subjective and even if we complain, it's more important to look at it in terms of blocking vs. defending, rather than what is considered ethic and what isn't.

[MagicArsouille]

total agree with you H. and I know that it's not against the rules to keep the inside, just like to break the tow....  in my first post I was trying to tel to Raoni that is not cool, not safe, not fine , unfair and no fun to block like this,(cause he change of line at the late moment, not when he have 50 or 100m gap)..... all specialy when he got a technical problem who make him loose 1 or 2s or more by lap !.......  in 1967, the pilotes was all gentleman driver, based on respect of the others , a good fighting spirit blowing throught the air....in this times, motorsports was very dangerous     ( one dead hitch 2 races !!! ) ......when I drive in our favorite sim racing  GPL , I do my best to be in this spirit of the '67, and I try to forget that it's just a simulation and that I can crash a car who cost 20.000 dollars and staying alive ( just have to reset  !)then , as many others drivers,I'm very carefull about no risk of contact as possible and a good fighting spirit of a gentleman driver.             
Ihad a good battle whith you H. at the Glenn, in a good spirit, I try to take minimum risk during this fight and it was great fun for shure !( even if an racing incident stop it )....I got also a fight with Raoni but it was mutch less funy,till he want absolutly over take me at big bend but out of control , he kick me out ..and I was not blocking by let a big room for him 'cause I feel the thing append ...I was ready to pardon him but when I don't see any sign of appologies, I do the remarque too him.....
.... for me defending is keeping the good( faster ) line as possible ( it's there where you are normaly the quicker ...) if the guy behind is faster, he have to manadge with this.....if I have to change my faster line to avoid to be overpassed , then I block !..it's quite clear ....of course it's not against the rules, but for me it's realy not a nice spirit of racing to defending that way, it's just a proov of feebleness....so for me that the big difference between blocking and defending.....

[tintin]

the big difference between blocking and defending.....

We have just to have a look on the graphic of the race History to understand Magic was blocked and the former simracer was not only defending its position   ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season24/Analysis/S24_F2_R05_L_2013_03_17_Jarama/RaceGraphics2.html
Any doubt to talk about a non-fairplay behavior.

[Hristo Itchov]

the big difference between blocking and defending.....

We have just to have a look on the graphic of the race History to understand Magic was blocked and the former simracer was not only defending its position   ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season24/Analysis/S24_F2_R05_L_2013_03_17_Jarama/RaceGraphics2.html
Any doubt to talk about a non-fairplay behavior.

Please, you can't draw any conclusions from such a graph, lol... The only way to judge properly is to have a look at the replay.

[DLogan]

the big difference between blocking and defending.....

We have just to have a look on the graphic of the race History to understand Magic was blocked and the former simracer was not only defending its position   ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season24/Analysis/S24_F2_R05_L_2013_03_17_Jarama/RaceGraphics2.html
Any doubt to talk about a non-fairplay behavior.

Please, you can't draw any conclusions from such a graph, lol... The only way to judge properly is to have a look at the replay.

viz. Bernoldi and Coulthard, Monaco, 2001.

[Hristo Itchov]

the big difference between blocking and defending.....

We have just to have a look on the graphic of the race History to understand Magic was blocked and the former simracer was not only defending its position   ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season24/Analysis/S24_F2_R05_L_2013_03_17_Jarama/RaceGraphics2.html
Any doubt to talk about a non-fairplay behavior.

Please, you can't draw any conclusions from such a graph, lol... The only way to judge properly is to have a look at the replay.

viz. Bernoldi and Coulthard, Monaco, 2001.

Slowing someone down by driving defensively isn't the same as blocking... please, use some common sense, lol.

[Raoni Frizzo]

the big difference between blocking and defending.....

We have just to have a look on the graphic of the race History to understand Magic was blocked and the former simracer was not only defending its position   ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season24/Analysis/S24_F2_R05_L_2013_03_17_Jarama/RaceGraphics2.html
Any doubt to talk about a non-fairplay behavior.

LOL Great sense of humor (I really hope it wasn't a serious post...haha)

Poor Senna! Thinking in this hilarious way, he should have been banned from F1 minutes after the 1992 Monaco Grand Prix

[DLogan]

viz. Bernoldi and Coulthard, Monaco, 2001.

Slowing someone down by driving defensively isn't the same as blocking... please, use some common sense, lol.

That was my point, Hristo. Bernoldi held DC up for a long time, quite legally. He had every right to do what he did, it was up to DC to get past cleanly, and he couldn't. The FIA listened to David rant and said, "Too bad, sorry, that's racing".

Hearing DC call Bernoldi an idiot (in public) afterwards just knocked my perception of David down a few notches.

[Hristo Itchov]

OK, but you replied in a way that implied you were arguing with what my post was about and it was not to show that you can't judge if someone defended a position by looking at a graph, but that you can't judge it was unfair driving and blocking, which was what tintin suggested.

[tintin]

LOL Great sense of humor (I really hope it wasn't a serious post...haha)

Poor Senna! Thinking in this hilarious way, he should have been banned from F1 minutes after the 1992 Monaco Grand Prix

Lol ! Are you the first brasilian supporter which considers the Prost behavior was a normal way when he blocked Senna at Suzuka GP 89!!??? This attitude was not acceptable for me. Although Prost' behavior was slighty understandable because there was no really lap time difference between them. When you have 4 seconds lap time diff.  of course the ethic (from a 1967 PoV  !!) is to recognize the follower is quicker and merit to gain the place, regularly.  

The ethic PoV disappeared with the investissors. But i don't think it should be the case with the sim. Only pure competitive and natural rivality should be expected (even if it shall be extreme between the best racers, as you are).