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  • S2467P Kyalami: April 21, 2013
April 21, 2013, 10:40:59 PM +0100 - Kyalami (1961-67) - UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Privateers Trophy (67)
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
DLogan
 
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 4 +1.185
112.350mph
1 46:20.579
111.974mph
34 1:20.682
113.500mph
Goodyear  
s2173
 Team7
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 1 1:20.323
114.008mph
2 +38.039
110.463mph
34 1:20.426
113.862mph
Goodyear  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Ferrari 312 (1967) F1 1967 2 +0.361
113.498mph
3 +47.511
110.093mph
34 1:20.988
113.072mph
Firestone  
bernie
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 5 +1.725
111.611mph
4 +58.819
109.655mph
34 1:22.429
111.095mph
Goodyear  
Flow
 
Ferrari 312 (1967) F1 1967 3 +0.504
113.297mph
5 +1:02.983
109.494mph
34 1:20.846
113.270mph
Firestone  
Michael Turner
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Ferrari 312 (1967) F1 1967 6 +2.242
110.912mph
6 +1:14.624
109.048mph
34 1:22.457
111.057mph
Firestone  
dave curtis
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 9 +2.472
110.604mph
7 +1:45.381
107.885mph
34 1:21.359
112.556mph
Goodyear  
AnGex
 Black Night Racing
Ferrari 312 (1967) F1 1967 7 +2.251
110.900mph
8 +1L
108.458mph
33 1:22.980
110.357mph
Firestone  
philippe GIRARD
 Blue Moose Racing
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 13 +3.026
109.869mph
9 +16.503
107.819mph
33 1:23.521
109.642mph
Firestone  
Billy Nobrakes
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 11 +2.726
110.266mph
10 +2L
105.219mph
32 1:23.099
110.199mph
Goodyear  
tintin
 Clark-Hill Racing
Honda RA300 F1 1967 16 +3.551
109.181mph
11 +10L
106.274mph
24 1:23.335
109.887mph
Disco
Firestone  
maddog
 Antipasti Racing
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 10 +2.597
110.437mph
12 +11L
108.017mph
23 1:22.343
111.211mph
Disco
Firestone  
francesco
 Antipasti Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 8 +2.455
110.627mph
13 +24L
94.355mph
10 1:22.769
110.639mph
Disco
Goodyear  
blito
 Shadows
Honda RA300 F1 1967 14 +3.318
109.485mph
14 +0.105
94.345mph
10 1:24.533
108.330mph
Disco
Firestone  
James Andrew
 
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 15 +3.485
109.267mph
15 +27L
103.061mph
7 1:24.605
108.238mph
Disco
Firestone  
HendyNichols
 
BRM P115 F1 1967 12 +2.989
109.917mph
16 +33L
98.566mph
1 1:30.214
101.508mph
Disco
Goodyear  
BadBlood
 Blue Moose Racing
Honda RA300 F1 1967 19 17 +34L
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Firestone  
Adam Cooper
 Team Coyote
BRM P115 F1 1967 17 +4.629
107.796mph
18 DNS ---
---
Goodyear  
clouds
 Shadows
BRM P115 F1 1967 20 19 ---
---
Goodyear  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
Lotus 49 (Cosworth) F1 1967 18 20 ---
---
Firestone  

Moderator's Report

Not too much to keep me busy but Billy and Badblood show that even years of experience doesn\'t stop you spinning off the line...


Server replay time: 0h01m03s

Martins car does impossible things and here he is in three places at once. Fran is braking when suddenly 30yds disappears in front of him and he rear ends the Maddog.

Martin wobbles into Hendy as he regains control but neither did anything wrong there.

Warp is difficult to deal with and Martin\'s car is prone to it which is worth remembering. Nothing Fran could do. Fran does go on to make the worst pit stop I have ever seen in GPL. At least it made me laugh, but you really shouldn\'t back up on track. It invites disaster.

Fran has an unlucky race as he is later biffed by Jason who is overtaking in the ever disappearing gap, but neither driver reported it, so it can\'t have happened, can it?


Server replay time: 0h49m00s

Dave has to take a Shift-R on the last lap and cannot take a Stop\'n\'Go. Rules cover this and 30 seconds is added to the race time for this.

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Privateers Trophy (67) - Kyalami - Apr 21  (Read 13056 times)
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blito
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« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2013, 06:46:36 AM +0100 »

Can you both tell me what you are "ärguing" about actually? It seems to me you're hammering down points with which everyone agrees and you question behaviour that doesn't really exist and opinions that aren't actually spoken. Yes, some people will move up a division next season, yes, there is an unfortunate chain of events that caused faster drivers to go into lower division, yes, that is not fair, yes, no one is to blame, yes, no one can do anything about it, yes, moderators are guilty for everything, yes, my spelling sucks.

In the end you will fill 3 pages with quotes and counter-quotes, and after that a mod will come and tell you to shut up. 


 rockon

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Jason Blito
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« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2013, 08:33:22 AM +0100 »

See, that's what is working against having a normal discussion every time - people overreacting and acting like you stepped on their toes. When exactly did I attack Dean? Perhaps you will notice it was his attempt to reply to me in a sarcastic manner which led to the exchange between us that followed? I was only speaking generally, yet people started taking it personally. Doesn't this prove those same people feel that maybe there is truth in what I say and that this is not the right division for them? If not, why act so insecure and argue?

You speak of accusations, I say it's just a point of view. You don't have to agree with it, but if you can't come up with common sense reasoning to argue against it, why do we have to go down to a personal level and try to insult each other, or to act butthurt? Give me solid reasons for the top group of drivers that I can't deny and I'll admit I was wrong, but so far I haven't seen any of that. All I see is people pretending they're rookies when they're not, pretending they're slower than they actually are and people who insist this division is not meant for slower drivers.

Whether you handicap yourself or not is totally up to you, nobody is asking for that, nor am I saying everyone should suddenly move to Works. It's too late to do changes so far into the season. The discussion is a look into how things should be done in the future, whereas you and the group you're racing regularly at the top serves only as an example...

First of all, this is my last post on this discussion, then I am out of it, because it leads to anything.
 
When exactly did I attack Dean?
Right after his explanation why he is in privateers. You started your post directly pointed at him, with "You and your nonsense [fat]again[/fat] Dean" You are attacking him there at two different levels. The first level is telling him that his current post is utter bullsh... and the second level is that all of his posts are utter bullsh... For me the whole discussion would have ended there, if I was him.
Doesn't this prove those same people feel that maybe there is truth in what I say and that this is not the right division for them? If not, why act so insecure and argue?

No, it doesn´t. It proves that it annoys people and that´s it. That it is insecure is only your point of view. Why argue? Because we have to! Who is we? The top drivers in privateers. We have to defend ourselves for our choice of division [fat] this season [/fat]. Don´t worry, I guess noone of us will be in this division next season. I sure won´t.
You don't have to agree with it, but if you can't come up with common sense reasoning to argue against it... Give me solid reasons for the top group of drivers that I can't deny and I'll admit I was wrong, but so far I haven't seen any of that.

I did! I explained myself. Dean, Cookie and Sky explained themselves as well. It is not our fault if you simply dismiss our explanations. Can´t you see or don´t you wanna see it?
The discussion is a look into how things should be done in the future, whereas you and the group you're racing regularly at the top serves only as an example...
I can see nothing constructive in this discussion. What do you wanna do in the future? Every new driver has to do some test laps and based on his performance "the jury" decides in which division he has to drive? People should still be allowed to pick the division they want to drive in. Freedom of choice... None of us top privateers picked this division because we thought "Oh yeah, I am so freakin fast, but I dont like competition, so I will join the privateers and dominate it and win every race. Yeah, that seems a good decision to me."

And you didn´t answer when I asked who is we, when you say "What do you want us to do, we can´t just look at the situation without doing anything". So it means the whole staff is unhappy about the situation in privateers this season or what? Or who are the unhappy drivers? I couldn´t notice anything about unhappiness out of Michaels and Andrews posts. I noticed that this vague and generic talk about "some people" happens quite often, without anyone ever knowing whom it refers to. And I still wonder why you are the speaker for those unhappy drivers, since you are neither in privateers, nor a moderator.

Anyway, maybe I could explain my reaction with this post, maybe I couldn´t explain it to you. Feel free to answer to it or not, I won´t reply anymore because I feel it would be a waste of energy.
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BadBlood
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« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2013, 09:05:06 AM +0100 »

Ultimately, the Moderators can move drivers between divisions. We 'suggest' to certain people that they might like to move up (or down) but we tend not to force the issue because if a driver is uncomfortable, they won't drive. Bigger grids tend to produce better races BUT if drivers are very unevenly matched we have to act.

In general terms, one season in the wrong division is acceptable but two would require action.
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« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2013, 02:34:29 PM +0100 »

When exactly did I attack Dean?
Right after his explanation why he is in privateers. You started your post directly pointed at him, with "You and your nonsense [fat]again[/fat] Dean" You are attacking him there at two different levels. The first level is telling him that his current post is utter bullsh... and the second level is that all of his posts are utter bullsh... For me the whole discussion would have ended there, if I was him.

That was a defense to his sarcastic personal comment, not an attack. If you're to point the finger, at least start reading from the beginning.

Quote
Doesn't this prove those same people feel that maybe there is truth in what I say and that this is not the right division for them? If not, why act so insecure and argue?

No, it doesn´t. It proves that it annoys people and that´s it. That it is insecure is only your point of view. Why argue? Because we have to! Who is we? The top drivers in privateers. We have to defend ourselves for our choice of division [fat] this season [/fat]. Don´t worry, I guess noone of us will be in this division next season. I sure won´t.

Oh really? How come it's only annoying to those who are Works material and the opposite of annoying for those who aren't?  Wink You don't have to defend yourselves, because I'm not attacking you. I'm saying you just don't belong in this series, period. You (not you in particular, but the top group) start coming up with lousy excuses that I already quoted, which are not really based on logic and are not really honest either.

Quote
You don't have to agree with it, but if you can't come up with common sense reasoning to argue against it... Give me solid reasons for the top group of drivers that I can't deny and I'll admit I was wrong, but so far I haven't seen any of that.

I did! I explained myself. Dean, Cookie and Sky explained themselves as well. It is not our fault if you simply dismiss our explanations. Can´t you see or don´t you wanna see it?

Well, don't expect me to just accept nonsense, because I won't. I've yet to see someone apart from Sky admit they are not for this division and just honestly take responsibility. All I hear is attempts to attack me personally or try and change the topic to something else.

Quote
The discussion is a look into how things should be done in the future, whereas you and the group you're racing regularly at the top serves only as an example...
I can see nothing constructive in this discussion. What do you wanna do in the future? Every new driver has to do some test laps and based on his performance "the jury" decides in which division he has to drive? People should still be allowed to pick the division they want to drive in. Freedom of choice... None of us top privateers picked this division because we thought "Oh yeah, I am so freakin fast, but I dont like competition, so I will join the privateers and dominate it and win every race. Yeah, that seems a good decision to me."

There is nothing constructive because instead of sticking to the topic of discussion, you and others begin to overreact emotionally and point the finger at me. I'm not really interested in that. It was actually aimed more towards the moderators and why they have allowed it, rather than the drivers themselves. I'm not accusing drivers and I already said it is within the rules and legal that you're all racing here. It's just that I don't see it as proper.

Quote
And you didn´t answer when I asked who is we, when you say "What do you want us to do, we can´t just look at the situation without doing anything". So it means the whole staff is unhappy about the situation in privateers this season or what? Or who are the unhappy drivers? I couldn´t notice anything about unhappiness out of Michaels and Andrews posts. I noticed that this vague and generic talk about "some people" happens quite often, without anyone ever knowing whom it refers to. And I still wonder why you are the speaker for those unhappy drivers, since you are neither in privateers, nor a moderator.

Anyway, maybe I could explain my reaction with this post, maybe I couldn´t explain it to you. Feel free to answer to it or not, I won´t reply anymore because I feel it would be a waste of energy.

I don't want you to do anything, I would like the moderators, those who run the league, to think about it and not allow it to repeat in future seasons. The issue here is, we've already had multiple discussions about how drivers should be allocated to each division, and unfortunately, for whatever reason (raising up number of participants?) this season has been neglected in that respect. People have simply been allowed to race wherever they want. This hurts the balance in the lower divisions, obviously.

Again, I just don't see why you have to be offended by all this. It's stating facts, not pointing the finger and assigning blame to drivers... Whether you feel obliged to move up or not, whether you're happy with how things are currently or not, that's up to you, just as it is up to me. Instead of getting in argument me with every time I post something concerning the league, try and direct your opinion to those who are in charge, but don't expect me to silently ignore nonsense and lack of logic, because next time we go the wrong path again, I wouldn't want to be part of the group which allowed it to happen by keeping silent.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bigger grids tend to produce better races

Sorry, Paul, but that's just not true at all. Bigger grids tend to produce more incidents, more traffic, more problems, etc. The racing does not improve just because you increase the numbers, it has never been the case.
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James Andrew
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« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2013, 07:46:36 PM +0100 »

Bigger grids tend to produce better races

Sorry, Paul, but that's just not true at all. Bigger grids tend to produce more incidents, more traffic, more problems, etc. The racing does not improve just because you increase the numbers, it has never been the case.

If I may fork the conversation, the definition of "better" is subjective. For me, it would mean merely having one or more people to chase or dice with for most of a race, rather than the usual lonely driving I do every week. However, having someone at your level to actually drive against does, indirectly, mean that you will have more incidents.

Purely from a statistical point of view, bigger grids DOES mean that more participants are likely to find someone of their level and therefore someone to make the race interesting. So, in a real sense, bigger grids do allow more people to have better races. Though I understand that those more talented will also find themselves having more unwanted or "silly" issues to deal with on-track.

For the record, I whole-heartedly agree with Hristo in that he merely made a general observation and several people took it personally. To my mind that does belie a hint of guilt. However, I also have no complaint about good drivers having their first season in with the Privateers. As long as they move up next season, as BadBlood said.

Now shut up, all of you! Far too much bitching over recent months...
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2013, 08:18:48 PM +0100 »

Yes, but in our situation in the league, bigger grids are almost always achieved by putting drivers of different ability into one place, which in the end does not lead to better racing. You still have 2-3 people to race against, even if there is a grid of 20. The concept of bigger grids here is that we have fewer divisions mixing drivers together, instead of more divisions and separating drivers by ability, which would maintain the amount of racing each driver gets, while getting rid of much of the issues related to handicap, to incidents caused by speed/skill differential, to the time necessary to moderate races, to drivers racing for 10th place instead of 5th or victory, and even issues with server crashes on occasions.
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« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2013, 11:45:23 AM +0100 »

When it comes to grid size, there's a fundamental problem ATM, with requesting smaller ones - we've a limited number of  Moderators ready to take on the responsibility.  Regulations and procedure, make the job a demanding one.  And top quality Servers are already fully allocated.

More drivers in a single race will produce more accidents.  Two separate grids might produce as many, when the 2 figures are combined.  You do get more cars involved in crashes from a larger grid, but this shouldn't increase the Moderating workload a lot, as most 'arrivals', are classed as non-participants in a racing incident.   And from a spectators viewpoint, larger grids are much more exciting . . . . for those who only want to watch.  laugh  Real world racing generally has 12 - 24ish cars racing together.

There are some valid points for running smaller grids - Server quality being one.  I prefer racing on a busy track, and without additional staff, that's likely to continue. 
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blito
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« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2013, 09:27:27 PM +0100 »

The only valid reason for small grids would be to shut Hristo up,although I'm sure it would be only a temporary reprieve from the master of the quote button....

 lol
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Jason Blito
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« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2013, 10:48:53 PM +0100 »

Gentlemen - "Beware!"   I've heard rumour there's a 'Taz' emoticon lurking somewhere, if disagreement's get entirely out of hand.  It's a long forgotten weapon, and not a pleasant sight.
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« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2013, 11:04:43 PM +0100 »

although I'm sure it would be only a temporary reprieve from the master of the quote button....

 lol

That would be Dean. And for someone given a moderator status, you sure are more interested in making sarcastic remarks rather than add anything to the discussion.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 11:08:12 PM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2013, 06:49:54 AM +0100 »

although I'm sure it would be only a temporary reprieve from the master of the quote button....

 lol

That would be Dean. And for someone given a moderator status, you sure are more interested in making sarcastic remarks rather than add anything to the discussion.  Roll Eyes

Look, I can use it too!!   

BTW, i was trying to be lighthearted.... clearly it didn't come across that way.
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« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2013, 09:13:32 AM +0100 »


Look, I can use it too!!   

BTW, i was trying to be lighthearted.... clearly it didn't come across that way.


Anyone can and should use it when necessary, otherwise you don't know who's replying to who. As for lighthearted, what makes you think it was heavyhearted before that? It wasn't, at least on my part. I don't understand why we can't have whatever discussion like grown up people without letting emotions interfere and take things so personally every time... It obviously leads nowhere.
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« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2013, 11:26:51 AM +0100 »

When I said that bigger grids tend to produce better races I did not mean to imply that the quality of the driving is better. It is just that all drivers can usually find a battle in the bigger field. Often in small fields (<6-7 say) the field gets very strung out and you have 6 guys doing qualifying...

A mix of abilities isn't necessarily a bad thing but in general terms the faster drivers do need to step up...
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« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2013, 12:15:03 PM +0100 »

The grids should be based on ability, not on numbers. If you have 6 drivers of similar pace, you'll get a much better race than a field of 15+, but of varying pace. What you need is not just numbers, but more drivers of similar ability for each division. Mixing up whoever just to increase the number of participants doesn't really solve anything and only leads to more trouble. We're not endurance racing Le Mans style, we're sprint racing (even the sports cars division).

Take this race for example. Though I haven't watched it, simply judging by the lap times, I can see at least 2 separate group of drivers who would have (excluding bad luck or mistakes) a very close battle. If those grids were separated, both of those battles would be for victory, which is a much bigger motivation than racing for 5th or 10th. In addition, there won't be traffic that can ruin someone's race and thus ruin a battle between the drivers. Sure, traffic may be part of real life racing, but it is mostly due to inferior machinery rather than lack of skill that you see backmarkers (i.e. F1). In lower single-seater series, there are rarely backmarkers because everyone is on similar level, racing similar or identical cars.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 12:18:54 PM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2013, 03:38:15 PM +0100 »

Yes, some good thinking there Hristo.  The solution would be more drivers, who in turn create more enthusiasts, who then evolve into more Moderators, who allocate more racers, who fill more grids, which allows closer racing for those of more similar ability, and a happy future for all who enjoy GPL.  To bring this about we need good Moderation, good application of fair and just rules, a constant online presence, and stimulating Website characters ,who fight pleasantly and without malice, for what they believe is right.  Carry on chaps.  Cheesy
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