UKGPL Season 16 (2008) Historic 66 - Mosport - Sep 16

[bernie]

Clive can move closer to you within his half of the track to get a better line.  The driver on the wrong side of the centre line is at fault.  Had you stayed on the outside you might have got an advantage as

Really ?

New to me , where does it say this in the rules book .

[Ken Murray]

Clive can move closer to you within his half of the track to get a better line.  The driver on the wrong side of the centre line is at fault.  Had you stayed on the outside you might have got an advantage as

Really ?

New to me , where does it say this in the rules book .

Here:

If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to room. The ahead driver can still battle for the place of course but must do so from a wider-out position, leaving room for the behind driver.

[bernie]

Not before the turn in point though was it 

[Ken Murray]

Not before the turn in point though was it 

I think it most certainly was bernie.

The thing is, as has been said, it's not as if Clive suddenly appeared in your mirrors, he was there for about 4 or 5 laps and then suddenly approaching the kink he dissapears from view. Where did you think he'd gone? I know it all happens very quickly but that's racing, you've got to be alert at all times.

[Storm_Cloud]

If this was a democracy I would have to vote against Bernie too. The only thing I would add to the debate is that I would not have risked going so close to the middle of track if I was in Clive's position. That's not to say Clive broke any rules as he had the right to that room but it made an accident more likely.

[bernie]

Well thanks guys for the driving tips which I can say I have taken all on board .

In future I promise to cooperate fully as per your guide lines .

so lets put this thread to rest shall we .



Just one thing bugs though  , why does the mods report penalise one driver and no mention of the goings on elswhere ? 

take a LOOK at lap 4 and Syds re join after Paul rear ends him

Lap5 Scloud v Skingley

Lap 8 Scloud gets his own back 

Lap 11 Mcrea v Scloud

I know the mods have a tough job but surely these deserved a mention

I appreciate your comments and advice but still think that was a better solution to my problem than the penalty which you have imposed , weather you agree or not my intensions on track were never agressive were entirely unintensional and i drove the whole race in the correct and a gentlemanly spirit .

IMHO of coarse 

[Storm_Cloud]

I guess it is because the driver's didn't report them. I didn't make any reports in this race but to cover the 3 incidents you mentioned...

Lap 5 - Lag bump

Lap 8 - I cunningly get my own back by spinning infront of him

Lap 11 - Fair do's. I should have reported that.

[Ken Murray]

Well thanks guys for the driving tips which I can say I have taken all on board .

In future I promise to cooperate fully as per your guide lines .

so lets put this thread to rest shall we .



Just one thing bugs though  , why does the mods report penalise one driver and no mention of the goings on elswhere ? 

take a LOOK at lap 4 and Syds re join after Paul rear ends him

Lap5 Scloud v Skingley

Lap 8 Scloud gets his own back 

Lap 11 Mcrea v Scloud

I know the mods have a tough job but surely these deserved a mention

I appreciate your comments and advice but still think that was a better solution to my problem than the penalty which you have imposed , weather you agree or not my intensions on track were never agressive were entirely unintensional and i drove the whole race in the correct and a gentlemanly spirit .

IMHO of coarse 

Glad you've taken our comments in the correct manner Bernie. I was worried you might think we were ganging up on you!! I have to say I've been guilty of similar errors of judgements over the years, it also took me a while to get my head around the peripheral vision restriction we have to put up with.

As for the other incidents, I have to say as I fast forwarded through the replay to find your's it did look like a wrecking spree at times but I didn't study any of them closely.

Mind this thread is getting like the one about Spa in the Real Racing section!!!

[Syd Drake]

As I said in the first post in this thread, only reported incidents will be investigated. SRou has an excellent incident reporting system, so use it.

[bernie]

I guess it is because the driver's didn't report them. I didn't make any reports in this race but to cover the 3 incidents you mentioned...

Lap 5 - Lag bump

Lap 8 - I cunningly get my own back by spinning infront of him

Lap 11 - Fair do's. I should have reported that.

Nothing personal , I was just picking them out at random , I am sure there are many more unreported instances in other races

As it happens I was one of the first to suggest that only reported incidents where modded , after all what is the point of agressive modding which can  take an age and be a complete waste of time when most people concerned are not really bothered .

Surely the true purpose of moderating should be to stamp out bad driving or resolve a dispute which could seriously effect a championship position . Most of us "self moderate" anyway , it is as Syd points out, your choice .

I was mearly using those examples as an illustration because I still dont get why I was penalised in that way and I still think the judgment was a bad one .

If I had known Clive was alongside I would have given him plenty of room as anyone who has raced alongside me will testify to , I dont think I was driving badly, but obviously others do !

There is something seriously wrong with the system when certain people (who should know better) can drive badly themselves then pass judgement on others yet ignoring there own missdoings !

Think about this , Isn't the fact that a driver who makes a simple error of judgement and as a result gets an automatic Disco punishment enough .

I beleive it is so ,obviously Clive was gutted, but then so was I , accidents happen when you race close , not sure what the general feeling is on that one though except to say this is not the first and it sure as hell wont be the last .



 

[Syd Drake]

There's really no point in any more discussion on this. The decision is not going to change. Not being aware where other cars around you are is not a good excuse. That back straight is the ONLY place on this track where you can try to overtake, and  Clive was following closely for a few laps. In fact, Hristo overtook me at the same spot in the same way, got a good run, we went over the hill side by side, and then he outbraked me for the righthander. No incident. So it can be done.

[Ken Murray]

If I had known Clive was alongside I would have given him plenty of room  

The thing is, as already said by Syd, you should have known he was there. That's the reason for the penalty. The GPL blind spot (or any PC racing game blind spot for that matter) is a well known factor that needs to be considered by all drivers when in a close company with others.

[bernie]

of coarse I new he was there , just didnt think he would attempt an overtake , I can honestly say i have never been overtaken at that place and have never before seen anyone else attempt an overtake there. As far as i knew there was only one line through that corner leading to the jump , maybe H can do it but he isnt exactly human is he , not something I would have tried as I have said previously if you care to read my comments , the move came as quite a suprise .

As for the mirrors I find it a little difficult watching the car behind all the time escpecially when approaching a corner that demands a lot of attention , and yes I do know the limitations , but I am not perfect and unfortunately do not share the superb foresight that you seem to have .

As for the penalty I did not expect you to change it , I was asking for a reasonable explanation as to why , you have given me your answer,  I'm OK with that but I still maintain that the mods penalty decision was over the top .

[Phil Thornton]

Gents

This has been an interesting thread to read and one that highlights everything I've been trying to do with UKGPL over the last couple of seasons.  UKGPL has been a breeding ground for some very fast and well behaved drivers over the years.  I would argue that our policy of reviewing and moderating all the races has encouraged drivers to think about what they are doing which has fostered an ability to race close and fast and yet finish races.  This helps to ensure the racing is more fun.  Nobody likes being punted off every few laps by inconsiderate or incompetent drivers.  This policy has been made possible by applying our penalty system fairly and transparently.

However there is a legitimate view that over zealous moderating can appear patronizing to the drivers and rather than improve the racing experience can in fact put people off.  I don’t think this has happened very often in UKGPL but I must confess to being a little aggrieved on several occasions when I have been awarded a penalty, which at the time I thought was a little harsh.  However, after a cooling down period I invariably came to the conclusion that the ruling was the correct one.  Nevertheless this raises a valid point in that I do not want to ask moderators to put in a lot of effort that is not appreciated by the drivers.  It is with this in mind that I have encouraged the moderators to only review reported incidents this season.  We are very lucky in that we can rely on the splendid SRou court system to manage the reported incidents.  The onus is now on the drivers to monitor their own races to make sure the high standards of driving we enjoy in UKGPL are maintained.  The moderating team will review this policy at the end of the season and determine whether or not it has been a success.  Drivers should be aware that they are not restricted to only reporting incidents that they are involved in.  Drivers can report any incident anonymously even if they were not directly affected in any way.

When drivers were restricted to racing in one division they tended to get used to the moderator’s decisions and they would know what to expect if they transgressed the rules.  The dwindling numbers in recent years has allowed drivers to race in more than one division, a situation that has been encouraged with the adoption of the various mods, particularly the 66 mod.  This has meant that drivers will be subject to the rulings of 2 or even 3 moderators throughout a season.  So it is important that the moderators are consistent otherwise the drivers will not know what the boundaries are.  I published a set of penalty guidelines that the moderators use to try to ensure some consistency over the divisions.  Whilst these guidelines are aimed at the moderators, the drivers should be aware of them too.  The guidelines do contain some explanation and rationale.

As Chief Moderator, I’m trying to set out the policy and arbitrate where necessary.  How the individual divisions are run is entirely down to the divisional moderator, after all they are doing the work and it is my role to support them.  With regards to this incident, I think Syd was correct.  My concern is that there has been so much debate about it, which implies the rules are not clear.  I have put in a lot of work to try to ensure the rules and penalty guidelines are clear and unambiguous.  Having said that it is not possible to have a rule for every possible scenario, which is why there will always be a need for some moderator’s discretion.  If there are some glaring omissions or mistakes in the guidelines then I will happily correct them, the rules are there to help not to hinder and to try to make sure we all enjoy the racing. 

Have FUN

Regards

Phil