Season 19 Warm-up - Zandvoort (1967) - Mar 7

[Turkey Machine]

I wondered who that target machine was.....

Yes, I accept I made a very basic error, but I hadn't seen him, plain and simple. Am I supposed to automatically assume that somebody will be on the inside of the corner if I'm on the outside approach? That puts me at a disadvantage straight away because I'd have to take the outside of the corner which is far more risky due to the way the sand here just spits you around at the first glance.

[Clive Loynes]

Apologies for the nudge Clive   

Accepted.  

You might have let me finish the bloody race!

I wasn't interested in winning the thing, I just wanted to finish!

I thought that you were alongside more and compromised my line to give you room on the inside.  Then whollop!!  You ran into me.

Only three cars left on the track and they all manage to hit each other.  tut tut tut

I liked it best when you were just ahead and towing me down the straight to keep me out of Mike's clutches.

Then you wanted to play.

[Clive Loynes]

Yes, I accept I made a very basic error, but I hadn't seen him, plain and simple. Am I supposed to automatically assume that somebody will be on the inside of the corner if I'm on the outside approach?

YES!   Only safe way to race on line.  At Silverstone I have sometimes reached hanger straight before I know that it's safe to use both sides of the track.

That puts me at a disadvantage straight away because I'd have to take the outside of the corner which is far more risky due to the way the sand here just spits you around at the first glance.

That's just the way it is.  You cannot hope to keep track of all the cars unless you have gone off pole like a rocket and have seen the opposition clearly in your mirrors.

[john roberts]

Yes, I accept I made a very basic error, but I hadn't seen him, plain and simple. Am I supposed to automatically assume that somebody will be on the inside of the corner if I'm on the outside approach? That puts me at a disadvantage straight away because I'd have to take the outside of the corner which is far more risky due to the way the sand here just spits you around at the first glance.

yes a very basic error and yes you should assume at the start of a race into t1 there could be somebody besides you . good job for you it was only a fun race or you would be getting some more penalty points imho , and we all know what points mean

but having said that Paul's crash was even worse than yours . i had got the jump on him off the grid and moved over in front of him , knowing Paul he then went for the inside to try and out brake me without looking where he was going first and so piled into Mike .

john

[EvilClive]

I wondered who that target machine was.....

Yes, I accept I made a very basic error, but I hadn't seen him, plain and simple. Am I supposed to automatically assume that somebody will be on the inside of the corner if I'm on the outside approach? That puts me at a disadvantage straight away because I'd have to take the outside of the corner which is far more risky due to the way the sand here just spits you around at the first glance.

 I can only echo what has already been said about "assuming" that someone will be there into T1, the odds are heavily stacked against there being nobody there whatever you might wish and that at Zandvoort a guarantee that they will be.  I have practised taking the outside line if I end up on that side of the grid because there is never a safe opportunity to get onto the inside track as you have discovered.
 Even from pole position I "assumed" that someone would try around the outside at T1 , so I held it tight against that concrete kerb and compromised a fast exit, but ensured no contact. I even risked a glance at Prib and a look in my mirrrors going to the left flick before taking the apex just to confirm there was no car within 0.2 and in my blind spot....on occasion some alien has managed to get himself into that area in previous races.

If you weigh up what can be won or lost by trying to change sides, there is only one outcome IMHO... and it ain't good!!!

[MikeBeattie]

Clive

My BRM was even more solid than you realised, 'cos I also got Wazz-ed on the run into Tarzan with 5 to go, hence me being behind you when you then got a further Wazza-ing, and I then collected the errant Wazza as he spun.  Now who the Wazza can that be ? 

Yes, I was a bit annoyed also when Evil decided to drop back, as I had finally just managed to get into your slipstream, after many laps work, only for you to suddenly get an extra 5 mph on the straight !!

Still it was all meant to be a fun race, so maybe that's why there were a few mishaps.

As to Jethro in T1, Gents I'm going to say he's not the only culprit (and Yes, I KNOW I'm not beyond reproach either) of not realising their surroundings. The number of times I have seen even some of our top drivers, make a mistake, lose momentum and then still expect that the car behind isn't now alongside are far too plentiful.

But what the Heck, I'm sure you'll all be on your best behaviour at the 10K, I can look forward to reading the reports.

[Doni Yourth]

Turkey, mashed potatoes, oceans of gravy, cranberries, apple pie, ice cream, whipped cream...  I forget the rest.  The foodies take on an alcohol stupor, I guess.

At least I had a good time!   

[john roberts]

Turkey, mashed potatoes, oceans of gravy, cranberries, apple pie, ice cream, whipped cream...  I forget the rest.  The foodies take on an alcohol stupor, I guess.

At least I had a good time!   

don't worry Kruger also got a slice of turkey in turn one

john

[Phil Thornton]

First of all I’m sorry Atlas didn’t turn up.  I’d arranged it well in advance but I didn’t have time to chase them up (busy DIY weekend).  I’m struggling to arrange opponents for the 8/11/09 slot so may be able to re-run this event on that date.

I’ve had a quick look at the replay and notwithstanding that it was a fun race the driving standard was disappointing.  It was like a Saturday night pick up race .  The whole point of having a league with rules is that it makes the racing more enjoyable, and that means for all races.  Just because it was a fun race doesn’t make being punted off at the first corner any less annoying.  Drivers are just going to get fed up and leave if they keep getting knocked off in L1 T1 shunts.  However I also know that treating people like school kids is a turn off which is why I don’t like having to issue lots of penalties and warnings after each race. 

I know I am slow compared to most other drivers in the league but then I can’t remember the last time I was involved in a L1 T1 shunt (well it was possibly Season 12, Div 2.  A wheel to wheel with Simon Loynes at Albi – in any case the crash was put down to a racing incident).  So it isn’t a matter of skill it is just a matter of being aware of who is around you.  And yes that does mean you have to assume someone is along side you unless you are sure the track is clear.  Which means you may have to compromise your line.  All this is clearly explained in the recommended driver behaviour and the expected penalties for getting it wrong are listed in the penalty guidelines.

I don’t want to rant on or comment on the incidents.  Anybody who wants to download the server replay can see for himself.  If there was a repeat of last night’s fiasco in a league race the moderators would be handing out penalties by the bucket load .

[Hristo Itchov]

If we were to keep statistic of who gets involved in Lap 1 incidents and who causes them, I'm sure you'd quickly notice just a handful of names occupying the top places in such list. Sure, everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but some do it almost each race, then they admit it later on (or even not!) and just repeat it again in the next race. It's as if admitting it or writing an apology is enough, and no change in approach it necessary.

The problem is some people don't realize that you can't simply, arrogantly, attack and expect others to give way or see you on time. And if you're afraid to lose a position then you don't believe you can make it up later by simply being faster (and therefore deserve that position). This is quite unreasonable, especially for those with faster cars who can easily afford to take it easy on the start and slipstream pass later on. I would understand a driver stuck in a slower car to try and prevent being passed, but even then, you prioritize finishing the race over claiming/protecting 1-2 places on Lap 1 that carries much bigger risks.

If you see many of my starts in recent seasons I almost always lose positions by giving way to hotheads, then make it up later on. Does it render my Qualifying pointless? Maybe, but it's better than risk retirement so early on. But yet again, sometimes you're just a passenger that gets knocked by someone's lack of awareness and respect.

Honestly I'm glad I didn't take part in this race and I'm not so amused from what's been happening last season and in recent races either. As Phil says, it's quite demotivating and the thought of leaving inevitably goes through your mind sometimes.

-=Hristo=-

[FullMetalGasket]

Your own assumptions may be challenged slightly though

I'm currently on 6 months with only 1 own fault (trying (and failing awesomely) to let you through last race) and one racing incident )
As that's half my entire online racing career I think that's pretty good really 

[Kruger Enge]

Gents, sorry for a late reply but I hardly had any time to post anything since the race.

As far as T1 is concerned, I can't put this on Jethro alone; warp played a major part in the accident but it was not a typical one I must say.

What happened was that I'm seeing Jethro going very wide so naturaly, I'm going for the inside and stick to the apex. I can't back up so much because everyone was quite close behind at this point.

At that moment, I thought I was hit by a bloody train, that's how hard the impact was. Not only did I explode and shed at least three wheels, my engine burning, the same thing happened to Jethro, or, to the bit I was getting on my PC. I was so angry because I thought I must have been hit at full speed by someone from behind. Looking at replay, I noticed that unfortunatelly, when Jethro returned towards the apex, server did not see us both on the track so when we reappeared, we were actually overlapping and his wheel was basically in my cockpit - GPL didn't like this Einstein-boggling turn of events and there was an explosion of cosmic proportions (I always wondered what happens when cars reappear in the same place, well now I know). I'll put some screenshots later, just for the laughs.

My point is:
- if I had accurate information about where Jethro really was, I could've done a bit more to avoid the contact
- maybe I wasn't showing in Jethro's client at all
- the contact most likely wouldn't have been a race ending one, GPL exaggerated it massively.

However, in Zandvoort particularly, when you're outside, you stay on the outside because you simply can't know if there is someone there or not, unless, as Clive said, you went off like a rocket and you know for certain where everyone is. Staying outside there means you're on the inside to next flick and outside to next corner and then again, inside to hairpin so sticking to the line is not so much of a disadvantage.

Uhm, yes, we probably should practice Monza 10k before we embarass our selves even more

[Clive Loynes]

LOL

Kruger me old mate, I know you to be a gentleman racer but I wouldn't trust your client replay to tell me anything but where you are.

I've watched you flit about the track for years and Sunday's connection didn't look as bad as it has done in the past.

I can't see anything that you could have done differently.  Your pc may not have been registering where Jethro was but since you couldn't see him anyway due to his position on the track that seems academic.

I'll grant you that your connection probably contributed to GPL's interpretation of the impact since he probably suddenly appeared with his front wheel in your left ear.

I agree that we all need to practice running in close company at Monza 10K.  We could do that on Wednesday again if that suits everybody, rather than running a 67 do at Oulton which would have been my intention.

[Hristo Itchov]

Your own assumptions may be challenged slightly though

I'm currently on 6 months with only 1 own fault (trying (and failing awesomely) to let you through last race) and one racing incident )
As that's half my entire online racing career I think that's pretty good really  

You don't have to take it personally, Tim, in fact those who fall under my imaginary Lap 1 incident list know who they are. I'm well over the Kya incident, as soon as I said that I'm looking forward to the next race.

There are just about two groups of people on lap 1: those that give way and those that don't. The former always rely on the latter to do their thing...

[Phil Thornton]

Just got a reply from Arturo at Atlas.  They're sorry about missing the race and we've agreed to reschedule for the 8th November.  Same track, same mod, same rules BUT no L1 T1 acrobatics this time please

I'll update this thread to reflect the rescheduled date.