UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Historic Trophy (66) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 15

[vosblod]

I would settle for the "use a bit of common sense rule"   

Yes that is the best rule 

I think the problem is exacerbated in divisions with mixed abilities eg Historics and Specs. That's not implying Dave is anything but experienced, I'm sure he's been driving with us since the year dot.
I'm not keen on bringing in artificial things such as no overtaking, warm-up laps etc, the GT's are an exception.
Loose grids are a must but I think making them looser could bring it's own problems. Much more and you will have lots of drivers being out of sight of the flagman. If you say wait till the car in front moves that could create some sort of stop / start situation which would be dangerous in itself, it would also allow the frontrunners to sail off into the distance from the drop.
Penalties are already more severe H, anyone causing an incident on lap 1 is loaded with an extra penalty place. One thing we are considering is full moderation of lap 1 across all divisions. That could be said to be shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted but, it might make people focus a bit more if they know the eye in the sky is watching them.

As regards red flagging Bernie is right - you'd have to have someone sitting it out and watching as the moderator could be ahead in the clear and not know anything about it. At present a race can be red flagged for a mass disco/server problems (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette).

[Hristo Itchov]

Well, you already know what I think about the lost place penalty. Even if the driver loses 10 places, it's not a big deal in the end, especially if the driver has retired anyway or finished way back because of the accident he caused.

[G Jonsson]

It seems to me that the penalty system is not working so well. To begin with I agree with Hristo about the places lost. Although it is a easy enough system when it comes to LM2 stuff, I do not think it sends the message clearly enough. Maybe it should be points lost instead.

I think that if you are the cause of a T1 incident, or even pre T1 like this time, you should be taken away from the possibility to do the same in the race that follows. This mean the penalty should be some kind of first lap restrictions for the next race like starting from the back maybe even waiting like 10 sec before you can start. I know some of you do not like the idea that the penalty should be transferred to the next race so maybe there is some other way but I do not see it at the moment. 

The shift-r road is very appealing at first and of cause it does solve the problem but then we are not really racing a simulator thing are we. And my experience from AusGPL and GPLRACER is that the stricter the rules, read GPLRACER, the less problems with first lap incidents. In AusGPL where there is no moderating and shift-r`s are allowed, as many as you like and no S&G to follow, there are more or less always T1 pile ups. But then in AusGPL there is a kind of self-penalty-system that mean that if you feel you are the cause of an incident you wait until the one you hit gets going. And also it has happend more than once that a driver that feels responsible for a T1 pile up on his own accord starts from the back for the next race.

Then there is the matter of when you get points at all. In GPLRACER you have to finish the race to score points, if you do not then you will have a DNF and 0 points, even if you blow the engine on the last lap. But as I said it seems to work because first lap incidents are rare in GPLRACER. They also have what they call a "Startzone" it use to be like the first 3 or 4 corners and if you cause a problem within it you get severely penalised.

Now all this is of cause thoughts for seasons to come so I am not proposing any severe penalty for Dave this time around but I like the idea that you should know that if you do any stupid moves in lap 1 you will not get away with it just because no one submits a incident report.

So to sum it up,

Penalties: lost point instead of lost places.
              lap 1 incidents lead to start restriction's for the next race

And, I also like to see no points if you do not finish the race, or at least a lot of it.

Göran





 

[Hristo Itchov]

Goran, it's the same thing if it's lost points instead of lost places. The lost places automatically rob you from points. Unless you mean losing points from the driver's championship total prior to that race. I don't like that though, the penalty should be something that does not affect the championship directly nor it robs the driver from a chance to score in future races, but just something to make it more challenging for him to do so.

I also think that if we introduce the minimum race distance finished to score points (i.e. 50%), it would make the lost places penalties even more meaningless, because a driver who caused and accident but retired before reaching the minimum race distance would be totally unaffected by such penalty.

[maddog]

All of these lap 1 incidents suggest to me, that rather too many UKGPL drivers possess more ambition than skill.  Have things worsened in recent times, or is all this discussion just, ahem, spinoff, from our clumsy approach to GT's?  They are new, and different.

Post race penalties, don't bring back races already ended on lap 1.  Seems to me, it's not possible to control a drivers skill, so these penalties are present to control a drivers ambition.  Victims are paying the price for overambition.

2 choices :

1/ You can either try to curb ambition, by applying larger penalties, or . . .

2/ Admit to inadequate skills, and introduce resets, so that all can continue to race ambitiously.

Penalties suggest a deficiency,(overambition) can be fixed, or controlled - resets/stop & go's suggest it can't.

The closest thing to a middle ground I can think of, would be to allow a lap 1 only reset/S&G - full Moderation optional.  This would admit, we're not capable of negotiating the 1st lap responsibly, but at least there'd be a better chance of seeing the finish line.

Of coarse, if everyone prefers a rolling start . . . ?

[Phil Thornton]

I couldn't have put it better myself Martin 

[EvilClive]

Why just a Stop n Go as a penalty for using the Shift-R option?

It could be a 10 second pit stop or 20 seconds? So you are able to continue your race, but it using a Shift-R WILL cost you.

[Hristo Itchov]

I do hope we don't switch to INT damage just to benefit from shift-r though. PRO damage has been proven to produce cleaner, less incident-prone driving. It's precisely that reason why we don't use INT in the first place. Besides, it affects mechanical failures probability and car damage in incidents.

I'm up for ambition curbing penalties, as Martin said it so well, otherwise people are unlikely to change their approach, knowing that shift-r can get them out of any trouble.

[G Jonsson]

I think we can all agree that penalties are intended to curb bad behavior. The question is what will make a driver behave.

The shift-r is obviously not the answer to that.

Pro rules, no points if you do not finish the race, or at least 50, 90 or some other % of it and severe penalties if you mess up will. At least that is my experience.

But what is the best penalty?

Hristo says "the penalty should be something that does not affect the championship directly nor it robs the driver from a chance to score in future races, but just something to make it more challenging for him to do so"

To, if you cause a T1 incident, make you start at the back of the grid, maybe with some delay too, will do just that, make it more challenging to score points.

But how could a penalty of any sort NOT "affect the championship directly"? what ever you do it will affect the championship and is not that what we want? If you mess up you will have less chance in the championship. Or is it something I do not get here?

The way to go, I think, is to combine to restrict you in the next race if you mess up, with the need to finish the race for you to score points.

Göran

[Hristo Itchov]

By "directly" I meant taking away points straight from a driver's total, instead of a penalty related to actual racing.

[vosblod]

I also think that if we introduce the minimum race distance finished to score points (i.e. 50%), it would make the lost places penalties even more meaningless, because a driver who caused and accident but retired before reaching the minimum race distance would be totally unaffected by such penalty.

Good point, although they would still get a yellow card accumulation for any future incidents.

Re making people start at the back of the next race etc... The reason I am not keen is, apart from discouraging people from attending future events, you could end up with someone alien-esque at the back trying to fight their way through the whole grid. OK the fast driver might be highly experienced at passing but it's still asking for trouble as the guys in front are racing and not being lapped.

My personal thoughts on drivers having to complete x% of a race to score is that I like it in theory but feel it will penalise anyone who puts in lots of practice, makes the effort of turning up but then gets knocked out very early on. Yes the other guy might get a penalty but that is cold comfort. Not ruling it out, I think it should be down to the division mods, and attendee numbers might prove me wrong. I do think it's a great idea for team v team fun events though.

One thing I can say is that, for Season 21, it is looking 99% certain we will be introducing full scrutiny of lap one across all divisions. I am hopeful this will help in reducing lap one pile-ups as, maybe wishfull thinking, you might be a bit more cautious if you know the 'eye in the sky' is watching you.

[Hristo Itchov]

Tim, imo you're worrying about things which are simply part of racing and shouldn't be removed or taken care of. You're trying to take away the responsibility of the drivers. If someone does cause accidents repeatedly, why would they be discouraged by such a penalty? And if they are, then they're missing the whole point of safe driving! Do they expect that they can continue driving in the same manner?

It's not like the start from the back penalty is going to be applied at first opportunity, but it should be due accumulation of a number of yellow points (2-3 for instance). For first offence, receiving just a warning is OK imo, although it depends how severe the offence is.

As for drivers having practiced a lot and being taken out, well... that's just the way it is, you get bad luck sometimes! What about someone practicing a lot and getting disconnected or screen freeze or blows an engine at the start? Or what about someone who hasn't practiced at all and gets a podium? It goes both ways and I don't think we should even care about such things, it's just how it is. I find it much more disturbing for drivers who retire on lap 1 to score points, especially if many retire at once and someone completes one more lap, goes into top 5 position, then retires and scores a lot of points.

Sure, I've personally benefited from this myself, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. And I'm certain I would've lost some Championships if we had a minimum distance rule in place, but it would be a lot more objective to who deserves to score points and win Championships. I don't find it serious that you can win by retiring on lap 1 or 2!

A minimum distance rule would cover such things and it would also make drivers focus on finishing, instead of driving like mad right from lap 1. Along with Pro rules, it should lead to more responsibility. And if not, that's where more real penalties should be introduced, because I don't think that some drivers would care much that you're penalizing them with just a formal penalty which doesn't stop them from doing the same thing again in the following races. I don't think that once you're racing you would be affected by 'the eye in the sky' so much as to drive safer. We already have that in place with the manual protest system.

[vosblod]

As for drivers having practiced a lot and being taken out, well... that's just the way it is, you get bad luck sometimes! What about someone practicing a lot and getting disconnected or screen freeze or blows an engine at the start? Or what about someone who hasn't practiced at all and gets a podium? It goes both ways and I don't think we should even care about such things, it's just how it is. I find it much more disturbing for drivers who retire on lap 1 to score points, especially if many retire at once and someone completes one more lap, goes into top 5 position, then retires and scores a lot of points.

OK as a practical example. I know you are someone who takes their racing seriously so how would you feel if you are comfortably running along in first and someone behind you has gone off. Just as you are about to lap them they rejoin straight onto the racing line, into you and take you out. They however survive the collision. They go on to finish say 7th (11 points). Post race they will probably pick up an Appalingly Bad Rejoin and a three place drop going down to 5 points.
You, on the other hand, happened to be on lap 14 (if we are talking 50%) of a 30 lap race and score zero.

If you are telling me you would do a post race report along the lines of 'well these things happen' I'll eat my socks

Of courses discos and freezes are just a fact of racing and tough.

[G Jonsson]

@Tim, The "full scrutiny of lap one" is already in place in the Historic and it did not do much good at Monza.

I was really puzzled when I joined the UKGPL and found that you would get points just for taking the start of the race, to me that is very strange.

Is there some kind of communication between UKGPL and GPLRACER in this matter? Do you know how GPLRACER have come to the conclusion that you have to finish the race to get points. And when it comes to number of drivers, maybe incidents in itself has a putting off effect?

And about the start-at-the-back-of-the-grid, "discouraging people from attending future events" why? The penalty is for the next race they attend so in that case they have to quit all together and do you really think drivers would do that because of a penalty?

And, "you could end up with someone alien-esque at the back trying to fight their way through the whole grid",  That is not an issue as I see it, the same happens if the alien loose places early on due to an off or something.

The whole penalty system must be there to make it worth while to drive safe, and to not get any points if you do not take your car to the finish or at least near the finish, is IMHO the best way to do that.

As a quick answer to you example when Hristo is taken out by the bad-rejoiner at lap 14, of cause I too think he will be furious but shit happens right? 

Göran

[Hristo Itchov]

As for drivers having practiced a lot and being taken out, well... that's just the way it is, you get bad luck sometimes! What about someone practicing a lot and getting disconnected or screen freeze or blows an engine at the start? Or what about someone who hasn't practiced at all and gets a podium? It goes both ways and I don't think we should even care about such things, it's just how it is. I find it much more disturbing for drivers who retire on lap 1 to score points, especially if many retire at once and someone completes one more lap, goes into top 5 position, then retires and scores a lot of points.

OK as a practical example. I know you are someone who takes their racing seriously so how would you feel if you are comfortably running along in first and someone behind you has gone off. Just as you are about to lap them they rejoin straight onto the racing line, into you and take you out. They however survive the collision. They go on to finish say 7th (11 points). Post race they will probably pick up an Appalingly Bad Rejoin and a three place drop going down to 5 points.
You, on the other hand, happened to be on lap 14 (if we are talking 50%) of a 30 lap race and score zero.

If you are telling me you would do a post race report along the lines of 'well these things happen' I'll eat my socks

Of courses discos and freezes are just a fact of racing and tough.

You think I never experienced that? It's happened tenths of times over the years! I would never ask for rules that make a change about such risks, it's part of racing. You can't always have the good luck - It's unnatural! And let's be realistic, it's not something that happens often per driver. It's more or less a single or double occurance for each driver over a season. In the end luck tends to balance out you know - today it would be you, next time it would be, after that it would be someone else.

I don't think we should even consider those cases, but focus only on accidents caused by bad/over-aggressive driving.

@Goran - yes, shit happens. It does in all forms of competitive activity. If you take out the risk element, it loses the attraction. We can't act like kids and always want to draw the long straw and complain when we don't. Sure, it's normal to be angry but you get over it and move on. And if a driver is at fault for causing the accident, you just apply the rules and penalize.