UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Professionals Trophy (65) - Rouen - Apr 16

[Artiglietti]

Florian was driving a Lotus until now!

Well the Honda will definitely be different and certainly harder! He might take the Cooper 

  I think that's the point Axel, giving a Honda/Cooper choice generated the confusion. Theres certainly people who have more knowledge than me on here, but I wouldn't think that for a driver leading the charts in the pros any 65 car would feel particularly harder to drive than the next one, and Honda is a couple of tenths off the Lotus in the WR anyway.

[EvilClive]

I guess the dilemma here is that some drivers can extract almost 100% of the performance from any car and others stay with, and develop a favourite car to give them a fast setup.

Because of handicap rules in the past I was forced asked politely   to take the BT7 or Cooper. It is possible to make any chassis in 65's competitive but it is in direct proportion to the drivers natural ability and the time they can find for off line practice. In my case it was very little ability, and many laps of practice when i could find time.
As a result I have some pretty good setups for the slower cars that allow me to get respectable lap times at most tracks, where outright straight line speed is not the overwhelming requirement. Using the BT7 at somewhere like Monza 10k is torture because you are never going to match the other cars for pace, in fact you might even get dropped from the slipstream if you do not stay right on the gearbox of the car in front!! But, provided there are sufficient corners and sections where the correct line and demon braking can exploited on a circuit then the slower cars have a chance if the driver is good enough.

Maybe I should not admit this, but I have NEVER liked the 67 BRM even since GPL was released and I don't think I have a single usuable setup for that car. I keep promising myself that I will make an effort to tame the Beast of Bourne, but because there is always an alternative chassis ( Honda or Cooper ) available I wimp out. If however there was a handicap system for the 67's that forced me into that green monster, I might have put in the effort and found the sweet spot of the BRM. Incidentally taming the 67 BRM would also improve my GPL Rank massively as it is the ommision of those lap times that holds my rank where it is.

So maybe being forced to use a slower chassis seems harsh, in the long run it maybe improves you as a driver and racer?

[Hristo Itchov]

So maybe being forced to use a slower chassis seems harsh, in the long run it maybe improves you as a driver and racer?

It certainly does, since you have no choice but to work hard and compensate for the lack of speed of the car. I should know after spending years stuck in the BT7 here.

I just wonder, if I was leading the championship, would I have been given the choice of Honda and Cooper?

[BadBlood]

NOPE 

[Hristo Itchov]

NOPE 

Why not? Florian is about as fast as I am, you can clearly see that in the races where we're both in the Lotus. The gap between Honda and Cooper is quite big, up to 2 seconds at some tracks, and I'm not even talking about tracks like Spa...

[BadBlood]

Well, to be serious, Florian is fast but not always accurate, whereas you are an acknowledged master of the Honda - giving you the White Whale would be no handicap whatsoever whereas its unfamiliarity might handicap Herr Gebhart Jnr.

[Hristo Itchov]

Well, to be serious, Florian is fast but not always accurate, whereas you are an acknowledged master of the Honda - giving you the White Whale would be no handicap whatsoever whereas its unfamiliarity might handicap Herr Gebhart Jnr.

May be so, yet giving me the Cooper or BT7, which are MUCH slower than the Honda, would rob me of chances to fight for victory completely. I drive the Lotus and yet it was very tough battle in all races this season. Go watch the replays if you don't believe me. As we discussed yesterday, isn't the idea of handicap to make it more difficult, not make it impossible to win? The Honda is obviously slower than the Lotus, so if I'm in a Honda, it would be more difficult than it is at the moment. If I still win, it would be because I'm slightly quicker and deserve it, not because I was not handicapped enough... you make it sound like I just shouldn't win at all. 

[BadBlood]

As the handicap only applies to the championship leaders the fact that you might not be able to win would have the effect of equalising the points to those behind. The handicaps are an artificial way of extending the championship and, as such, I don't like them much but I don't think it can be argued that the effect has been to lengthen championships. In fact, in the Novices last year, Rob should have easily won but because he spent most of the season in the BT7 he was pipped in the last race but what cost him the championship was one really poor outing where he was penalised for a rear end shunt. The art is to maximise the results when handicapped although there are other strategies such as staying fourth in the championship to avoid handicapping.

It was a shame that last years Novices was settled on handicapping and moderation but there can be no doubt that they do have the effect for which they were intended otherwise Rob would have won it by Race 6.

[Hristo Itchov]

As the handicap only applies to the championship leaders the fact that you might not be able to win would have the effect of equalising the points to those behind. The handicaps are an artificial way of extending the championship and, as such, I don't like them much but I don't think it can be argued that the effect has been to lengthen championships. In fact, in the Novices last year, Rob should have easily won but because he spent most of the season in the BT7 he was pipped in the last race but what cost him the championship was one really poor outing where he was penalised for a rear end shunt. The art is to maximise the results when handicapped although there are other strategies such as staying fourth in the championship to avoid handicapping.

It was a shame that last years Novices was settled on handicapping and moderation but there can be no doubt that they do have the effect for which they were intended otherwise Rob would have won it by Race 6.

This is the main reason why I'm voting for 3 divisions running smaller but tighter grids, driving skill-wise. It would make it much better in terms of racing, without the need of heavy handicap (if any), plus it would make the moderator's job easier as well.

[Cookie]

Yes, I am also for the 3 grids!

Hristo, my decision to give you a Cooper in Mexico was in the belief that you can win the race with it!

Your Cooper PB is a 1:50.962 !

The race FL of your opponents were a 1:51.760 of Tris and a 1:51.696 by Clive and a 1:52.233 by Florian!

So you had some reserve to manage a win...

[Hristo Itchov]

Yes, I am also for the 3 grids!

Hristo, my decision to give you a Cooper in Mexico was in the belief that you can win the race with it!

Your Cooper PB is a 1:50.962 !

The race FL of your opponents were a 1:51.760 of Tris and a 1:51.696 by Clive and a 1:52.233 by Florian!

So you had some reserve to manage a win...

It's not about pure qualifying (or end of race with clear track) lap times though. With the big difference in straight line speed, even if you start on pole, you are down to 4th or 5th, if not lower, by the time the field reaches T1. Afterwards it's nearly impossible to make a pass and make it stick, even if you're quicker in the corners. The slipstream just negates any possible advantage you may get in corners. Besides, people have really improved since previous seasons, the qualifying sessions and races are very competitive! Even if I have the Lotus, it's not easy at all at the moment. We're actually lucky Tristan has elected to use the Honda this season, otherwise I'm not sure I would have an answer for his current pace.

[Cookie]

"it's nearly impossible", but possible!

Thats why it is called a handicap!

And you agree that the Honda is a big handicap for Tristan, so why not for Florian?

[Hristo Itchov]

"it's nearly impossible", but possible!

Thats why it is called a handicap!

And you agree that the Honda is a big handicap for Tristan, so why not for Florian?

Possible only if those in front retire or spin off, which is not something I like to rely on. In terms of pure pace and racing, it's just impossible, all other factors equal.

And no, I didn't say it's a big handicap for Tristan. He was just a second off from my Lotus time in this race and I'm sure he didn't even get slipstream in Q. Besides, it's his own choice to take the Honda at the start of the season. At Aintree he was right there in the fight for victory and at quicker tracks he would be a favorite for the win. Had Florian actually raced yesterday, I'm sure he was going to be in the fight for victory, just as Clutch was in his BT11.

There is a noticeable gap between Cooper/BT7 and the other cars, so you have to consider it individually for each track. At a track like Rouen and with slipstream in mind, all but those 2 cars are pretty much equal in terms of race pace.

[BadBlood]

Assuming we had a handicap would you just handicap the top two with those two chassis H? It has always been difficult to find a third chassis as a handicap chassis but the Honda would fit the bill on a really twisty track with no huge straights. That is probably why I don't like Brands Hatch!

[Hristo Itchov]

Assuming we had a handicap would you just handicap the top two with those two chassis H? It has always been difficult to find a third chassis as a handicap chassis but the Honda would fit the bill on a really twisty track with no huge straights. That is probably why I don't like Brands Hatch!

It depends how much you want to handicap. Ideally I think the top 3 or 4 should be handicapped, with 3 or 4 groups of cars related to performance, plus employing the thing we do in F2 this season where the top driver is given the slowest cars only if he/she leads by 50 or more points. For 65s I would suggest something like this:

Top driver leading by 50 or more - BT7 and Cooper only.
Top driver leading by less than 50 - Honda or BT11 (depending on track), plus BT7 and Cooper (not that anyone sane would bother).
2nd placed driver - Honda, BT11, BT7 and Cooper, regardless of track.
3rd placed driver - all cars except Lotus and maybe BRM (though it's mostly competitive at tracks with long straights).
4th placed driver - same as 3rd, or no handicap.
All other drivers - free choice in EVERY race. In other words, no mandatory use of single chassis for the whole season. I simply don't see the point in it if we have handicap.

Now, I'm not an expert with cars like BRM and Ferrari, because I have hardly driven them, but coming from observation during the last couple of seasons, that's how I see it. Also, this is assuming the grid is relatively tight and not too much of a mix in terms of driver skill level.