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  • S2969X Rouen: October 25, 2015
October 25, 2015, 10:59:31 PM +0000 - Rouen (1955-70) - UKGPL Season 29 (2015-16) UKGPL 69 Extra Trophy
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Piero Mercaldo
 Squadra Padova Corse
Brabham BT26a (DFV) F1 1969 1 1:50.865
132.014mph
1 38:06.729
128.006mph
20 1:53.046
129.467mph
Dunlop  
Tom van Ostade
 Antipasti Racing
BRM P126/139 F1 1969 4 +2.432
129.180mph
2 +4.597
127.749mph
20 1:52.894
129.642mph
Dunlop  
FullMetalGasket
 Black Night Racing
BRM P126/139 F1 1969 6 +3.646
127.811mph
3 +9.030
127.503mph
20 1:52.909
129.624mph
Dunlop  
Ronnie Nilsson
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Lotus 49b (DFV) F1 1969 7 +3.873
127.558mph
4 +54.601
125.021mph
20 1:55.348
126.883mph
Firestone  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Ferrari 312 (1969) F1 1969 5 +3.561
127.906mph
5 +57.680
124.857mph
20 1:53.010
129.508mph
Dunlop  
DLogan
 
Lotus 49b (DFV) F1 1969 12 +9.363
121.733mph
6 +1:28.178
123.253mph
20 1:51.948
130.737mph
Firestone  
bagrupp
 
Brabham BT26a (DFV) F1 1969 9 +5.300
125.991mph
7 (+1) +1:46.574
122.306mph
20 1:54.485
127.840mph
Dunlop  
Rainier
 Black Night Racing
BRM P126/139 F1 1969 13 +16.135
115.242mph
8 +1:50.117
122.125mph
20 1:56.816
125.289mph
Dunlop  
Marco Mercaldo
 Squadra Padova Corse
Brabham BT26a (DFV) F1 1969 2 +1.318
130.463mph
9 (+1) +2:11.880
121.026mph
20 1:53.260
129.223mph
Dunlop  
francesco
 Antipasti Racing
McLaren M7 (DFV) F1 1969 10 +7.434
123.718mph
10 +1L
118.903mph
19 1:57.940
124.095mph
Firestone  
bernie
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Brabham BT26a (DFV) F1 1969 11 +9.133
121.967mph
11 (+1) +1.984
118.802mph
19 1:57.132
124.951mph
Dunlop  
AnGex
 Black Night Racing
Matra MS84 F1 1969 18 12 +10.972
118.348mph
19 1:56.783
125.324mph
Dunlop  
philippe GIRARD
 Blue Moose Racing
Lotus 63 (DFV) F1 1969 14 +17.734
113.809mph
13 +2L
113.264mph
18 2:02.289
119.682mph
Firestone  
GregT
 
Matra MS10 (1969) F1 1969 3 +1.830
129.870mph
14 +20L
---
0 1:52.142
130.511mph
DQ
Dunlop  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
BRM P126/139 F1 1969 8 +5.232
126.065mph
15 -28:01.220
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Dunlop  
Doni Yourth
 Blue Moose Racing
BRM P126/139 F1 1969 16 +21.633
110.460mph
16 -28:01.220
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Dunlop  
Samb
 Black Night Racing
Matra MS80 (DFV) F1 1969 15 +17.918
113.647mph
17 -28:01.220
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Dunlop  
dave curtis
 Black Night Racing
Matra MS84 F1 1969 19 18 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  
60fps UKGPL 8
 
BRM P126/139 F1 1969 17 19 ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

This one was very difficult to moderate.
Essentially the big shunt on the 1st lap at Le Nouveau Monde...
I hope this kind of incident will not happen again this season !



Server replay time: 0h01m23s

Big shunt on 1st lap.
Almost all drivers were concerned by this one.

Marco missed a gear and clearly made a mistake, but to me it is not an excuse for other drivers to rear end his car, especially on 1st lap.

We (several moderators ...and finally me) will call this a racing incident.

But please read and remember this :

"If you see an incident ahead slow down and maintain at least a car length distance from the car ahead (you should be able to see tarmac between your cockpit and the car ahead). Overtaking under yellow flags is not allowed so there is no advantage to be gained from driving too close and risking catastrophic warp contact."

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h01m41s

on the turn just after the hairpin, Bastian went on the grass and made a side by side contact with Marco's Brabham. penalty 1 place


Server replay time: 0h01m52s

To let another quicker driver pass him, Philippe slowed down, went to the grass and spin ...the result was at the opposite of what he wanted to do and there was a contact with Andreas car.




Server replay time: 0h02m23s

Almost the same kind of incident for Francesco.


Server replay time: 0h03m59s

Marco went wide at the hairpin and had a contact with the tyres;
Same happened to Greg, following him.
Marco selected his reverse gear and touched Dean's car.
penalty 1 place for bad rejoin.


Server replay time: 0h17m40s

Bernie crash against Dean's car on the 1st turn of the track as Dean was overtaking him.
Penalty 1 place for side by side contact for Bernie.


Server replay time: 0h38m28s

After a shift-R, Marco didn't fully stop at the pits.

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 29 (2015-16) UKGPL 69 Extra Trophy - Rouen - Oct 25  (Read 8194 times)
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FullMetalGasket
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« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2015, 09:56:29 PM +0000 »

Pace laps and virtual safety car sound wonderful in theory.
Except as soon as you reach the first racing lap everyone will suddenly jump to it again - and the potential for an accident is still there!
This happens regularly enough in club racing for real and driving our computers makes us even more at risk in these situations.

This is simply a question of self control, after the amount of incidents I got caught in last season I simply took an attitude of 'leave them to it' for the first few laps. It didn't give me a clean sheet of wins in the latter half of the season, but once I started doing it but it did bump my average finish up due to less time in the shrubbery.

With the variation of setup options due to wings it seems silly for people to charge in on lap 1 with no idea what their opponents strong and weak areas are. Braking distances especially. Cold tires can massively affect the brakes in 69x.
That BRM setup I used was based on last seasons Kyalami setup where it seemed to have the best brakes in the field, these didn't really work for two laps though as the tires didn't warm up enough to work with the wing/suspension settings at the start. I braked early (Continued to through most of the race infact as Tom clearly had less wing and worse brakes) and apart from a very gentle bump in Nouveau Monde in the L1 pile up where I couldn't avoid him we didn't touch once all race.

Which was great as we had a right old battle right up until we caught a backmarker right at a point where Tom managed to scarper and drop me. His straight line speed was enough to prevent me from catching up again in time for a challenge to the finish.

Well done to Piero and Tom, also to Ronnie for a great result and to all the finishers  Smiley
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EvilClive
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« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2015, 10:27:21 PM +0000 »

I seem to recall that we always used to have a "no fault" reset, maybe it would be a good idea for 69x.

It does require all drivers to confess that they used a Shift-R and when they did it, so that the moderator can assess the situation?
I guess the big question is whether this means more or less work for the moderator??
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Tom van Ostade
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« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2015, 11:16:56 PM +0000 »

I'm in my 10th season with the ADC and until recently, the league had a 'no passing til after T1' rule.  It's been suspended of late as entries are down.  There were times when a 2nd server needed to be employed to handle the GPL overflow.  I had no problem with holding station til after T1 but frankly, I think that I'd just a soon go once the green flag drops.  We're big boys here.  We just need to look after one another a little better, no?



I did participate in some ADC races but the pace lap threw me off. I do like competition and not just motoring around on your own. But desperate times call for desperate measures, we got it wrong as a field twice in two tries. That's pretty bad.

There are lots of ways we can try to reduce the occurrence of mass crashes.  These generally fall into two categories:
  • Deterring drivers by harsh penalties or restrictions (PRO rules, red zone, extra penalty for lap 1 incident)
  • Removing a contributory factor (use loose grids, have rolling starts, enforce no overtaking zone)


I can't say that any of the techniques used to deter drivers have much effect.  Once the red mist descends all reason and rationale seems to evaporate.

Removing a contributory factor does seem to help but I'm not a fan of "rolling starts" or "no overtaking zones" as they are not authentic. So that just leaves loose grids IMO.

I like PRO rules because it is authentic and gives a slower driver a chance to score good points. There are any number of drivers in the 67 Works division who could crash, do a shiftR and a S&G several times and still beat me because they will easily make up any time lost.  But PRO rules are a pain if you are the innocent victim of a Lap 1 crash fest.

As Robert said above, I think the 69x mod itself has a lot to do with lap 1 mass crashes in this Division.  The cars are so fast there is less time to react.  So perhaps a different approach is needed for this division.  We just need to reduce the impact of a mass pile-up ruining an innocent drivers race.

Keep the loose grids but how about the re-introduction of a no-fault shift-R.  If a driver thinks they are innocent, then take a shift-R but don't do a S&G.  That way an innocent driver isn't punished twice.  If a driver who thinks they are innocent and doesn't do a S&G after a shift-R but is subsequently found to have been at fault, has a minute added to their race time.

That should be enough of a disincentive without introducing a measure that will ruin an innocent driver's race.

I like the 'no fault, no Stop n Go' rule Smiley .

Either way, to use a cliche, races are not won in the first corner, only lost. Racing against each other means trusting them to do what's right. It's like a debate or a heated but friendly conversation almost. It seems Marco didn't trust us enough to brake in a timely manner, lost focus and missed a shift at a vital moment. An error from him, but we as a field pressurized him too much maybe, philosophically speaking. I braked a little early but not as intense, so I would have some margin for error, and moved the brake bias forward to allow greater control into Nouveau Monde hairpin on lap 1. It allowed me to miss Axel, but only just, and I only tapped Marco slightly because I couldn't stop with the field right behind me. There was considerable luck involved so I have it easy when I speak, but maybe we just went in too hot as a field, not trusting each other enough.

Maybe Rouen isn't the best place to race 69x anyway, with said hairpin. I raced my second online league race ever here, in the 69's too, but back then the whole field had had practice races on both Friday and Saturday evening, as was common practice back then. Without the whole field learning to trust each other in practice races beforehand, perhaps some tracks like Rouen just aren't suited for 1969-Extra races.
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Ronnie Nilsson
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« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2015, 11:33:50 PM +0000 »

Some good debate here.  I know I'm a cautious racer - I'm not sure I've ever actually overtaken anybody! - but I do think some people need to show more restraint / respect.  I am often being rammed from behind or forced off the track by people overtaking (I'm not talking about lapping, for which I always pull over).  I think a no-fault reset would be good, and maybe with a pro format would focus the minds of the over-enthusiastic! Wink
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DLogan
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« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2015, 07:25:27 PM +0000 »

A few thoughts to add to some good ones above:

1) Start procedures do not affect what happens half way round the lap, penalties do.

2) 60fps = bigger replays = more space needed for incident replay uploads. 600KB may be insufficient for some.

3) This all started due to Marco not realizing he was in neutral (despite the engine revving and the car not moving) for EIGHT FULL SECONDS (and we all know how long a second lasts at racing speeds). Just let that sink in for a few moments, then tell me why we're looking elsewhere for a solution to this "problem".
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Rainier
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« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2015, 06:07:28 PM +0000 »

moderation posted
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Piero Mercaldo
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« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2015, 12:01:40 PM +0000 »

Dean continues to blame Marco who definitely was wrong but from what seems almost insist that you allude to a calculated error.
Marco made a mistake as it happens to everyone, including you ..
If it were not for the problem of the re-start this "casino" mess would not have happened, we will enjoy you and I saw you were second !!
See you tonight!!

W Valentino Rossi
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Marco Mercaldo
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« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2015, 12:41:01 PM +0000 »

I do not understand what you mean logan, you think I have done voluntarily, losing second place to start last....................HuhHuhHuh
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DLogan
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« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2015, 06:55:19 PM +0000 »

If I thought Marco had done that intentionally, I'd be calling for him to be banned from the league. In my report, I even stated that his not realizing he was in neutral didn't justify a penalty.

His unsafe rejoin (very slowly and straight into the middle of the track, forcing Bastian's evasive manoeuvre and their contact) was worth penalizing, in my view (but not the moderator's). I really don't get how they thought that was Bastian's fault.

The point I was trying to make was that lots of people were offering "solutions" that had nothing to do with the situation as it happened. Changing the grid, or having no-passing zones, won't stop someone from simply not accelerating when they are expected to.
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bagrupp
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« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2015, 08:38:13 PM +0000 »

I agree with dean, but lets go racing again....let the past behind.
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2015, 08:52:58 PM +0000 »

If I thought Marco had done that intentionally, I'd be calling for him to be banned from the league. In my report, I even stated that his not realizing he was in neutral didn't justify a penalty.
The moderating team are of the same opinion.  It is not UKGPL policy to penalise drivers for making mistakes, drivers are only penalised for making bad decisions that compromise other drivers.  In this case the shunt was precipitated by a genuine mistake, a missed gear, not a decision to attempt a move that was infeasible.

Quote
His unsafe rejoin (very slowly and straight into the middle of the track, forcing Bastian's evasive manoeuvre and their contact) was worth penalizing, in my view (but not the moderator's). I really don't get how they thought that was Bastian's fault.
This is a difficult one. The UKGPL rules (see here) state:

It is the responsibility of any driver who is returning to the track to make sure they do not interfere with other drivers.
  • Rejoining drivers should stay off the racing line and give way to faster cars until they are fully up to speed. Rejoining drivers should not attempt to keep anyone behind them until they are fully up to speed. Any driver who rejoins a race and, owing to negligence, causes another car to crash or take severe avoiding action, will be penalised


The racing line is on the outside exactly where Marco was obliged to rejoin the track.  He couldn't be expected to get back up to speed on the grass.  The exit of the corner and where Marco rejoined the track are practically the same and are both effectively a standing start so it is not as if Marco was rejoining the circuit where the other cars were already flat out.

Did Marco's rejoin directly affect Bastian?  Not in the opinion of the moderating team,  Bastian did not have to swerve or take avoiding action.  Admittedly Marco could have stayed left, perhaps worthy of praise if he had, but not worthy of a penalty if he didn't.  However Bastian had more momentum and took the opportunity to try to pass Marco.  Having made the pass Bastian cut back in too early, he should have waited until he saw Marco's car in his mirrors before he moved over.

So the penalty for Bastian was for cutting back too early, it was nothing to do with Marco's rejoin.  Bastian can appeal if he feels the moderation was harsh.

Quote
The point I was trying to make was that lots of people were offering "solutions" that had nothing to do with the situation as it happened. Changing the grid, or having no-passing zones, won't stop someone from simply not accelerating when they are expected to.
A perfectly correct and valid point too!  The moderators looked carefully at the distances the drivers were behind each other at the Shell marker board in the braking zone.  Although there was some correlation between between separation distances on the approach and whether or not the driver hit the car in front; the main factor was the acceleration/turning/braking phases.  The cars in the acceleration zone were more likely to hit the car in front (Greg, Axel) because they were anticipating the car in front would move.  The cars in the turning zone had a chance to react and avoid contact because they were not about to hit the throttle.  The cars in the braking zone had an opportunity to brake earlier and avoid contact.  Driver skill was also a significant factor.

However once all the cars had closed up, warp would inevitably have an effect and cars started to be exploded all over the place.  It is not possible for cars to be moving slowly within a few centimetres of each other without the risk of warp registering an overlap.  So it is important to maintain a car's length separation at all times, even when driving slowly.  Hence the advice in the mod report.  For a good example of how to negotiate the carnage look how Andreas did it.

The simple fact is these cars accelerate faster and brake faster than any others in GPL so they have to be driven accordingly.  Circuits with slow corners (Rouen, Montjuic, Snetterton, Monaco etc) exacerbate this problem.  Hopefully Silverstone won't be a problem.

The moderating team welcome these debates as we are only interested in improving the quality of the racing for the benefit of everyone.  So please continue to feel free to contribute.  However it would be regrettable if this resulted in drivers having arguments and disagreements that detracted from the enjoyment of the racing.  Before reaching such a stage it would be better to trust in the moderating team to make the right decisions.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 08:56:03 PM +0000 by Phil Thornton » Logged
DLogan
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« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2015, 08:00:36 PM +0000 »

...It is the responsibility of any driver who is returning to the track to make sure they do not interfere with other drivers....
    ...
And Marco demonstrates this perfectly by driving straight into the middle of the track. Slowly. In second gear (because we all know that cars accelerate from slow speed better in higher gears).  Roll Eyes

Bastian then has the choice of ramming Marco, checking up LARGE (and risk being rammed himself by someone who doesn't realize that there's a roadblock ahead), or trying to find a way around. He does this last just at the same time that Marco finally decides to accelerate, so he's there when Bastian tries to make the corner. Yes, Bastian could have done a cleaner job of it, but we don't punish drivers for mistakes, just "bad decisions" (like hitting the green button to join this race).

Quote
...Rejoining drivers should stay off the racing line and give way to faster cars until they are fully up to speed. Rejoining drivers should not attempt to keep anyone behind them until they are fully up to speed. Any driver who rejoins a race and, owing to negligence, causes another car to crash or take severe avoiding action, will be penalised[/li]
[/list]...

And how do Marco's actions not fit that to a T?

Quote
...Did Marco's rejoin directly affect Bastian?  Not in the opinion of the moderating team,  Bastian did not have to swerve or take avoiding action...

No, he did not have to take avoiding action. He could have kept his speed and line and rammed Marco right up the tailpipes.

If this is the result, I'd not be surprised if he's quite tempted to, next time. If he's going to be penalized anyway, make it be for something that's worth it.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 08:02:12 PM +0000 by DLogan » Logged
Rainier
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« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2015, 08:11:21 PM +0000 »

Dean, I think you could be a great moderator !

I am not joking at all, you could quickly start with this new role, I am ready to give you my place.
And I would be very grateful if you agreed. 
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DLogan
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« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2015, 08:23:59 PM +0000 »

And a clarification, re the incident with Bernie: as he acknowledged his error, and it did not affect the race outcome in any way, I had asked that no penalty be applied. Disregarding my preference may make others less willing to use the incident report system.

...Dean, I think you could be a great moderator !

I am not joking at all, you could quickly start with this new role, I am ready to give you my place...

I think the racers should decide that. If you want to put it to a vote or something, I'm willing. Thank you for your efforts so far.
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bagrupp
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« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2015, 09:00:05 PM +0000 »

I need a translation of some sentences to understand them completly....
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