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  • S3255F1 Buenos Aires: September 26, 2017
September 26, 2017, 09:36:59 PM +0100 - Buenos Aires - UKGPL Season 32 (2017-18) 1955 Grand Prix
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
FullMetalGasket
 Black Night Racing
Connaught Type B F1 1955 1 1:41.548
86.224mph
1 49:43.797
85.100mph
29 1:41.845
85.973mph
Pirelli  
MagicArsouille
 
Maserati 250F F1 1955 2 +0.660
85.668mph
2 +3.541
84.999mph
29 1:41.753
86.051mph
Pirelli  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
Connaught Type B F1 1955 4 +1.447
85.013mph
3 +59.340
83.441mph
29 1:42.903
85.089mph
Pirelli  
bagrupp
 Team Groundhog
Mercedes W196 F1 1955 3 +1.122
85.282mph
4 +1:12.453
83.083mph
29 1:41.675
86.117mph
Continental  
GregT
 Team Baarf
Connaught Type B F1 1955 5 +2.288
84.324mph
5 +1:29.891
82.611mph
29 1:43.637
84.486mph
Pirelli  
Samb
 Black Night Racing
Gordini T16 F1 1955 8 +3.362
83.461mph
6 +1L
81.735mph
28 1:45.138
83.280mph
Englebert  
Ronniepeterson
 
Gordini T16 F1 1955 11 +4.667
82.436mph
7 +20.133
81.190mph
28 1:45.888
82.690mph
Englebert  
francesco
 Antipasti Racing
Lancia D50 F1 1955 7 +2.835
83.883mph
8 +31.433
80.888mph
28 1:45.171
83.254mph
Pirelli  
Rainier
 Black Night Racing
Mercedes W196 F1 1955 13 +5.261
81.977mph
9 +32.565
80.857mph
28 1:44.647
83.671mph
Continental  
Clive Loynes
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Gordini T16 F1 1955 6 +2.401
84.233mph
10 +49.637
80.405mph
28 1:45.344
83.117mph
Englebert  
DLogan
 
Maserati 250F F1 1955 14 +11.824
77.232mph
11 +1:13.855
79.771mph
28 1:44.355
83.905mph
Pirelli  
ReiverEcosse
 
Vanwall VW55 F1 1955 12 +5.041
82.146mph
12 +2L
78.538mph
27 1:47.202
81.677mph
Pirelli  
dave curtis
 Black Night Racing
Maserati 250F F1 1955 9 +3.724
83.174mph
13 +10.283
78.270mph
27 1:46.463
82.244mph
Pirelli  
Billy Nobrakes
 Black Night Racing
Maserati 250F F1 1955 10 +4.215
82.788mph
14 +25L
73.546mph
4 1:47.933
81.124mph
Disco
Pirelli  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
Gordini T16 F1 1955 15 DNS ---
---
Englebert  
9 UKGPL
 
Lancia D50 F1 1955 15 16 ---
---
Pirelli  

Moderator's Report

No reported incidents results stand

SimRacing.org.uk Lap Records
Grand Prix Legends
F1 1955
1:41.548
86.224mph
FullMetalGasket
Qualifying
Connaught Type BSeptember 26, 2017, 09:36:59 PM +0100
S3255F1
Grand Prix Legends
F1 1955
1:41.675
86.117mph
bagrupp
Race
Mercedes W196September 26, 2017, 09:36:59 PM +0100
S3255F1
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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 32 (2017-18) 1955 Grand Prix - Buenos Aires - Sep 26  (Read 2184 times)
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Rainier
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« on: September 16, 2017, 05:36:59 PM +0100 »

Championship 55 F1 – Season 32 – 1st round – Buenos Aires 1955 - Circuito N. 2

First event of this new championship with the 55s takes place at Buenos Aires 1955 - Circuito N. 2, it was made for the new 55 mod by Ginetto.

Read carefully the rules on the championship standings page.
 
Unlimited Shift R are allowed but should be followed by Stop & Go’s in the pits within 2 laps.

Race listiGOR
ServerUKGPL_8
IP addresslook at IGOR
Date26-09-2017
Trackba55n2
Mod55F1 with 60fpsV2newmod
Damage INT long
Race time~ 21:30 UK time
Qualifying 20:45 UK time - 45 minutes
Race length25 laps
Replay here

Please restrict chat to emergency messages only including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.

Password: see above
Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page

Handicapping and chassis allocation.
This season the 1955 Grand Prix cars will be using a token system which allows drivers to purchase any chassis of their choice for a given number of tokens as published on the championship standings page. Drivers classed as Amateurs will be allocated an additional 10 tokens.  The token allocation will not be managed in SRou this season so (unlike the 67F1 Works and 67F1 Privateer divisions) the tokens available to each driver will not appear in the championship table (when the mouse pointer is hovered over the driver's total).  Rather, the available tokens will be published in the race announcement.  See below.

Available Tokens:
Note: These are the tokens available to each driver before the 10 tokens are added for making the race start.

Driver   TokensStatus
Robert Fleurke   
10
Pro
EvilClive
10
Pro
Ronniepeterson
10
Pro
DLogan
10
Pro
FullMetalGasket
10
Pro
Doni Yourth
10
Pro
Clive Loynes
10
Pro
Samb
10
Pro
MagicArsouille
10
Pro
Turkey Machine
10
Pro
Billy Nobrakes   
20
Am
maddog
20
Am
bagrupp
20
Am
Geoff65
20
Am
Jeep
20
Am
Gareth
20
Am
Rainier
20
Am
Phil Thornton
20
Am
dave curtis
20
Am
francesco   
20
Am
ReiverEcosse
20
Am
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 11:19:28 PM +0100 by Phil Thornton » Logged

Le silence Ă©ternel de ces espaces infinis m'effraie
Rainier
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2017, 07:04:26 PM +0100 »

The moderator will try to calculate the tokens for each racers before all 55 races

Drivers must pay the number of tokens for the chassis they use in accordance with the following table:

For the first race, Pros will have 20 tokens and Amateurs 30 tokens, then 10 tokens more each races.
But A driver who fails to start any of the first 5 races will only be eligible for an initial allocation of 5 tokens ...



ChassisCost in Tokens
Mercedes-Benz W196 SL   20
Mercedes-Benz W196   18
Lancia D50   15
Maserati 250F   12
Ferrari Tipo 555      12
Ferrari Tipo 625      10
Vanwall VW55      10
Connaught Type B   5
Gordini Type 16      Zero
   
 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 07:27:51 PM +0100 by Rainier » Logged

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maddog
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2017, 08:03:17 PM +0100 »

For some reason, I thought a good handicap system had been made here.  10 extra tokens for slower drivers.  Start with 30.  Add 20 per race for Amateurs.  Add 10 per race for Pros.  

What I see is 1 token per race for 10 races?  Or 0.5 for part time. Hit with a wet fish Is this correct?
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2017, 08:13:41 PM +0100 »

For some reason, I thought a good handicap system had been made here.  10 extra tokens for slower drivers.  Start with 30.  Add 20 per race for Amateurs.  Add 10 per race for Pros.  

What I see is 1 token per race for 10 races?  Or 0.5 for part time. Hit with a wet fish Is this correct?
Hi Martin

The slower drivers only get an additional initial allocation of 10 tokens, the "start money" is the same.  You are almost right, 10 tokens for 10 races, 5 tokens for 5 races.  Not much of a handicap I admit.  The season hasn't started so the moderating team can be influenced by a well structured and constructive argument  Wink.  How many tokens do you suggest would be fair?
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maddog
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2017, 10:26:50 PM +0100 »

Thanks Phil, for allowing some interaction.  This was more usual, back when I started here.

55's do not have a huge difference in their laptimes.  Any handicap should consider the advantage gained, by a fast 'Amateur' , over a fast Pro, from the extra tokens allowed.  1 token might give 0.2secs, or maybe 0.4secs?. To give good competetive racing to all, you need several seconds to give those with a parambulatory deficit a chance to compete.

I'd suggest a full token choice for Am's.  And a restriction for Pro's to realistically let Am's compete.  winkiss



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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2017, 01:00:16 AM +0100 »

0.4secs a lap equates to how many tokens? I'm not sure how to equate lap times with tokens.  To come up with the token allocation for the 55, 66 and GT cars we have compared the World Record times for the chassis, assumed a linear relationship and mapped it against a token range of 0 to 20.  We then adjusted it (a little) until it looked right.  But it's all a bit subjective.

The token system in the 67F1 works by allowing a driver to take the same mid priced car car over a season and the formula seems to work and produces good racing.

So we've adopted the same principle for the 55s (and 66s and GTs).  For the 55s the same 110 tokens over a season (10 at start of season and 10 per race) would allow a Pro to take:

4 x Ferrari 555/Maserati 250F + 6 * Ferrari 625

A fast Pro will always beat an average Am no matter what cars they are in.  The Spa'67 race was an example of that.  Tim managed to come second in the Gordini beating some quick Ams in silver and red cars in the process.  The handicapping will only really have an impact between the slower Pros and the fastest Ams.

If we try to give the Ams enough tokens to compete with the Pros we are in danger of making the Ams competition into a spec race. I was in a Lancia and Tim was in a Gordini and he still beat me so it doesn't matter how many extra tokens I am given I'm not going to be competitive against Tim.  Even if you gave me enough tokens to take the Mercedes W196 SL in every race.

However for the more evenly matched Pros and Ams:

An extra 10 tokens would allow an Am to take:
10 X Ferrari 555/Maserati 250F

An extra 20 tokens would allow an Am to take:
7 X Ferrari 555/Maserati 250F + 2 x Lancia D50

An extra 30 tokens would allow an Am to take:
4 X Ferrari 555/Maserati 250F + 6 x Lancia D50

An extra 40 tokens would allow an Am to take:
10 x Lancia D50

So would the fastest Ams in a Lancia be competitive against the slowest Pros in one of the Ferraris? 
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Rainier
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2017, 08:36:51 AM +0100 »

Let's give an unlimited number of tokens for Ams ...

For my PoV, it will almost change nothing.

Look at the Gordini driven by Tim in Spa, quicker than any other cars except Axel's Ferrari (for only 3 or 4 tenths)

Just my opinion, we are wasting time with this ...
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FullMetalGasket
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2017, 09:52:06 AM +0100 »

Guys, will the results table be split between the Pros and Ams - I.E. 2 classes as we've done previously in other series?
If so, who has how many tokens becomes irrelevant as the Ams won't be directly competing with the Pros anyway.

And while I'm here - I know I'm missing Monaco as I'll be in Japan, I'll probably still be there for Indy too, Is it simpler for me to assume I only have 5 points to start the season with?
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 11:11:15 AM +0100 »

Guys, will the results table be split between the Pros and Ams - I.E. 2 classes as we've done previously in other series?
If so, who has how many tokens becomes irrelevant as the Ams won't be directly competing with the Pros anyway.
The intent is to have one championship table so the Ams and Pros are competing in the same championship.

In previous seasons we have run 2 classes by either:
  • Having 2 completely separate divisions as per the 67F1 Privateers and Works run on completely different servers
  • Having 2 completely separate divisions but sometimes sharing the same server as per the spec series in Season 22 which used the "Heavy" and "Light" terminology rather than Am and Pro or Privateer and Works.

The overriding issue with any or these options is in how the results are loaded into the SRou system.  SRou is a mighty impressive creation but believe me it takes a lot of effort to set it up properly so that all the championship tables display the right races, the races are imported correctly and the correct rules are applied.  It isn't an easy matter to make changes to SRou (SRou is the web site that hosts UKGPL for anyone who isn't sure).

We are running a token system for the 66s, 55s, and GTs outside of SRou for this season (using a spreadsheet) to see if it works and to allow us to tweak the token values if necessary.  If we decide to keep the systems we can then arrange to have the "debugged" systems incorporated in to SRou.

Tokens is a chassis levelling system not a handicapping system but we have an opportunity here to experiment with allowing some drivers (classed as Ams in this case) to have a few extra tokens and allow them to be a little more competitive.  It is not going to change a Phil Thornton into a Tim Muttram.  I would need a Lewis Hamilton's Merc for that not a few extra tokens that would get me the W196!

If people don't think it will help we can drop the idea but I personally would welcome a few extra tokens to allow me the luxury of avoiding the slowest cars.  But I don't want so many tokens that it means I always have to take the fastest chassis to be competitive with my peers.  These days my goal in most of the races is to avoid being lapped, very hard to do that in the slower cars.
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maddog
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2017, 01:26:57 PM +0100 »

The token system is great for adding variety, and for delivering a handicap. To see how tokens will affect laptimes - you take a maximum token Am. lap, with a maximum allowed Pro's lap, but with an Am. driving.

Using Dave's suggestion above, you'd compare an Am. Mercedes ( 20 ) with an Am. Ferrari ( 10 ) at a track or 3.  This would give the advantage gained, and allow A worthwhile handicap such as this example, to be adopted and adapted, for different carsets, with a lot less guesswork. Cool
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 01:29:02 PM +0100 by maddog » Logged
Phil Thornton
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2017, 03:53:12 PM +0100 »

...compare an Am. Mercedes ( 20 ) with an Am. Ferrari ( 10 ) at a track or 3...
That's the problem with the 55s, there isn't any mature data available.  Hence the intent to manage the tokens outside SRou and as the data becomes available we can amend and update the token allocation.  If you, or anyone else for that matter, would like to monitor the lap times over this season and calculate a sensible token allocation I'm sure the mod team will take notice.
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2017, 04:18:42 PM +0100 »

I think it is a good base to read and compare the technical data of the cars

Code:
Std chassis Speed RPM Ratio HP Weight lb/HP setup car folder
Vanwall VW55 164,3 7.230 3,576 255 1.546 6,06 *.ia1 brabham
Gordini T16 162,2 6.030 2,929 225 1.436 6,38 *.ib1 brm
Connaught B 159,8 6.420 3,150 230 1.480 6,43 *.ic1 coventry
Maserati 250F 163,4 7.320 3,643 255 1.524 5,98 *.id1 eagle
Ferrari 555 SS 164,7 7.220 3,563 260 1.502 5,78 *.ie1 ferrari
Lancia D50 165,3 7.990 3,938 270 1.502 5,56 *.if1 lotus
M_B W196 166,3 8.470 4,125 290 1.601 5,52 *.ig1 murasama
M_B W196 SL 177,6 8.550 3,938 290 1.722 5,94 *.ih1 co7
Ferrari 625 163,6 7.180 3,563 260 1.546 5,95 *.ii1 co8

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Rainier
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2017, 05:37:32 PM +0100 »

I think it is a good base to read and compare the technical data of the cars

Code:
Std chassis Speed RPM Ratio HP Weight lb/HP setup car folder
Vanwall VW55 164,3 7.230 3,576 255 1.546 6,06 *.ia1 brabham
Gordini T16 162,2 6.030 2,929 225 1.436 6,38 *.ib1 brm
Connaught B 159,8 6.420 3,150 230 1.480 6,43 *.ic1 coventry
Maserati 250F 163,4 7.320 3,643 255 1.524 5,98 *.id1 eagle
Ferrari 555 SS 164,7 7.220 3,563 260 1.502 5,78 *.ie1 ferrari
Lancia D50 165,3 7.990 3,938 270 1.502 5,56 *.if1 lotus
M_B W196 166,3 8.470 4,125 290 1.601 5,52 *.ig1 murasama
M_B W196 SL 177,6 8.550 3,938 290 1.722 5,94 *.ih1 co7
Ferrari 625 163,6 7.180 3,563 260 1.546 5,95 *.ii1 co8


Speed Gordini 162,2
Speed Mercedes 177,6

...but
Speed Gordini driven by Tim 177,6
Speed Mercedes driven by Rainier 162,2   Cheesy
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2017, 06:40:45 PM +0100 »

Yes but what will Tim be able to do in the Mercedes???    scooter
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maddog
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2017, 07:23:46 PM +0100 »

Those exact numbers look like a lot of work, for a simple handicap system.  Choosing who can race as an Amateur is not exact, so probably no need for an exact calculation.  Smiley

An easy way to make an estimate for 55's, would be to look at these funraces.  Take a fast, medium, and slow track.  Give Am's 20 tokens, and Pro's 10,  to see who has the faster laptime?  By how much? 

Try again with 15 and 10, and with 11 and 10.  Exact and perfect is not necessary, but something to keep more drivers in the hunt, would be good.
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