UKGPL Season 15 Historic - Zandvoort (1967) - May 27

[MikeBeattie]

At this point I would like to acknowledge the Civic Duty performed by Evil on behalf of all Sub 3 litre drivers in his clearance of Mr Chapman's Rolling Road Block. Having, prior to the "Valve Clearance Adjustment" incident, been a very close witness to the Wagging Tail that controls Master Loynes steed, I can only at this date, confirm my appreciation of the task carried out by Evil in clearing the path for me to assume my rightful place in the Dutch sand dunes

PS Bernie, Thank you for making way for my somewhat desperate block pass, you really have to be welded onto the gearbox of a 3 litre when it enters the S/F straight to stand any chance of getting the banzai braking  move into Tarzan.

Looking forward to the Green Hell ..............never thought I'd ever be saying that

[EvilClive]

Recognition of my selfnessless at last
ps. hope the mods see it that way, but somehow I think the esoteric value of my self sacrifice might not be taken into consideration.

[Clive Loynes]

Let’s face it, there are two distinct breeds of racer in these events.  There are the Formula 1 drivers; manfully wrestling their full 3ltr machines around demonically twisty circuits.

And then there is Formula Hooligan.  The latter running an assortment of lady’s cars that have enough grip to stick to the average pit wall. 

To be serious for a moment, we have all but given up trying to run the two groups of cars together in the BREASTS league because we just don’t have the necessary skill to avoid hitting each other.

I’m sure that Mike and Evil are fully aware of the following but for the benefit of newbies, Mike’s point is very true.  A Formula Hooligan car does need to be glued to the gearbox of a 3 ltr car as it enters the straight.  But not at mid corner.  It is necessary to use the increased cornering ability to arrive at the exit of the corner at full-chat and stuffed up the tail pipes of the car in front.  If the Formula Hooligan car gets it wrong and arrives too close at mid-corner then he is the only person that can do anything to avoid a collision.  From my observations, if the Formula Hooligan arrives at the back of the 3 ltr car mid-corner and has to back off to avoid hitting him, then when they reach the straight both cars will be travelling at the same speed and the “proper” car will just bugger off and leave him in his wake.  Further incentive not to be camped out inside the tail pipes of the car in front!

In GPL in general, not just 66mod, there is a tendency for cars to follow too closely to the car in front.  Then when the guy in front hiccups and they hit him they plead that they couldn’t be expected to know.  I personally think that’s cobblers. 


None of this applies if you are able to drive the 3ltr car as fast as Lorenzo.

[Kruger Enge]

Let’s face it, there are two distinct breed of racers in these events.  There are the Formula 1 drivers; manfully wrestling their full 3ltr machines around demonically twisty circuits.

And then there is Formula Hooligan.  The latter running an assortment of lady’s cars that have enough grip to stick to the average pit wall. 

LoL

[EvilClive]

LOL
I accept your tongue in cheek criticism Clive and hold my hand up to "that" incident being down to me. no question.

But ... there's always a but,... he he.... as you say, for a minnow to keep up with one of the behemoths down the straight it needs to be up close and personal out of the last bend. This might give it the tow to minimise the speed difference, but in my experience so far, the minnow still loses ground, and short of a banzai braking effort at the end of the straight ( also fraught with possibilities of carnage) there is no "real" overtaking opportunity, just a case of staying in touch.

Where the diddy cars have the upper hand is on the twisty bits, and that is where we can make up some serious ground. It is therefore on these sections where we are quickest that we need to effect a pass, in the hope that we can get far enough in front to survive the next straight.
 Maybe I am doing it wrong, but that is how I see things from the perspective of a 2 litre car, I just cannot match the 3 litres for straight line speed even with slipstream. Especially the big Fez, which on any decent straight leaves me for dead and will effectively break the tow on a long enough straight. That is sooooo frustrating as it takes the rest of the lap, around twisty bits to arrive behind again just as you enter the straight and watch them disappear again!!!

That is by no means an attempt at an excuse, more agreeing with Clive's observations about the mixture of cars and their relative performance from the seat of the little guys.
evilC

[MikeBeattie]

Yes the pass I got on Bernie, was as described above, by managing to get a better run from midway thru the last corner, so that by the time we hit the Straight, I was close behind and going slightly faster. But then the power of the proper 3 litres ( i.e. discounting the McLaren) kicks in and he had a big gap by the start line. It really was a big braking effort that got me into Tarzan, on the inside and alongside Bernie. Hats off to him he made room and didn't try to block the pass. Clive's Lotus H16 was a totally different beast, and I don't think the 2 litres can even get close enough no matter how good you come off the last bend.

It is interesting the BREASTS have already segregated the cars, and it possibly shows the way for future seasons.

Nurby should be some fun, it will be interesting to see how qualifying goes, as I think a lot of the 3 litre cars will be capable of getting towards the front of the grid.

[Clive Loynes]

Nurby should be some fun, it will be interesting to see how qualifying goes, as I think a lot of the 3 litre cars will be capable of getting towards the front of the grid.

I know one that isn't

Just don't get stuck behind me!   

LOL  Something for Formula Hooligan to consider.  If you drop it on lap one you could find yourself behind a very W-----I-----D-----E   Lotus

[EvilClive]

Dam!!! I was hoping that you would not have thought of that
because if you manage to get in front and hold it until the straight you will be about 10 secs in front as you cross the S/F line...must practice starts and first lap...must not go off and allow Clive to pass....stress..stress...stress

[Ken Murray]

I've been away for a weeks hols but I have read the posts here regarding the 3 litre/2 litre debate with interest. I don't want to say I told you so but, I predicted this before the season even began. It was clear from the test races that pitching the two totally different cars against each other was a recipe for disaster.

But just to counter Clive's argument about the 2 litres running too close in the corners. I see your point about timing it so you are closest on corner exit and not mid corner, fair point. But you still have to be pretty committed once you enter the corner and if the 3 litre hiccups even just a little then it's virtually impossible to avoid a collision (or at least a warpy contact).

Just some more comments regarding the plans to use a handicap system for this Championship.

I was reading an interview today with Fonsi Nieto, a World Superbike rider. He was commenting on how difficult it is to race his 4 cyl Suzuki against the Ducati twins. He was saying even though the lap times are similar the characteristics of each machine mean a different riding technique is required and it becomes difficult if you are riding close together. He said he was fine with other 4 cyl bikes. That in turn reminded me of the 500cc V-twin Grand Prix bikes that were run for a couple of years against the 4 cyl monsters. Jeremy McWilliams actually put a twin on pole at Philip Island but in the race he was swallowed up by the pack before he even made Turn 1 and then just couldn't make progress because the 4's were slowing him in the corners and just leaving him on the straights.

Point I'm coming to is that in the UKGPL test races and in some BREASTS handicap races I've competed in recently I get a similar feeling. I can lap fairly quickly in the 246 Fez but not if a lumbering Lotus BRM is holding me up in the corners. No disrespect to any of the other drivers, I'm sure I'd be slow in the corners in the same car. I just think we need to be careful how we run this.

[bernie]

It never worried Jackie Ickx 

[Tifosi312]

In the real 1966 season the faster drivers had the faster cars.
The current handicap system is the problem.

The best solution would be to use the car of your choice, and use pit stop handicap to give the slow guys a chance.
This way overtaking would be safer, because the fast guys would have the power to overtake, and the slow guys would be driving cars with less power that are easier to control.

I would handicap the driver and not the car. So if someone is leading the points they have a big pit stop handicap, and a shorter stop for the next guy etc...
This way the moderators would not have to spend hours trying to work out car handicaps for every track.


paul

[Ken Murray]

In the real 1966 season the faster drivers had the faster cars.
The current handicap system is the problem.

The best solution would be to use the car of your choice, and use pit stop handicap to give the slow guys a chance.
This way overtaking would be safer, because the fast guys would have the power to overtake, and the slow guys would be driving cars with less power that are easier to control.

I would handicap the driver and not the car. So if someone is leading the points they have a big pit stop handicap, and a shorter stop for the next guy etc...
This way the moderators would not have to spend hours trying to work out car handicaps for every track.


paul

I agree Paul, but I still think a Masters style handicap system would be best. Otherwise everyone will always take the fastest car and it will be a spec race.

[MikeBeattie]

Hey Ken

Are you currently posting on the TT site??


Handicap systems whether using car selection or even pitstops will always cause some havoc, as the godd drivers are by their nature faster into, thru and out of corners, so there is always the chance of collecting slower drivers.

Personally, I don't mind the current system, I ran with it in the ADC for years. They recently went over to a free choice system for their races, all of which are not run as a league. I would return to me original suggestion made Pre Season where drivers have the choice of a 2 & a 3 litre car. To refine it further say two cars from the same manufacturer, the non 2 car manufacturers could be tied in with other teams.

However, really the trick for us 2 litre guys is not to fall off on the tracks where we have the advantage !!!

[Ken Murray]

Hey Ken

Are you currently posting on the TT site??

Yup.

Just wish I was actually there though! Having to miss it this year for once. Must make a pre-booking on the ferry for 09.

[MikeBeattie]

Never been, I'm just a Radio TT fan Which is a bit sad for an Ulster man

It's on my "To Do" list, and I better hurry up before all the races are at Billowen !!!